Looking for the best book on creating chord movement to use on standards

[SeanZ]

Wow. I have been needing to get my life right diagonally, I guess. Just working on the diatonic subs in thirds for a minute and realize how good the stuff is. All those drop two 9ths 11ths that I've never quite polished and memorized are there... and I already know them and basically have had them memorized. It's just slower for me to think of them with reference to just the one chord. They are much less mindnumbing to work on in the sub context.

Never really explored the VII-7b5 for II-7 relationship before. Loving this for Am7:

X X 5 55 7
X X 4 5 5 5
X X 7 9 8.10
X X 7 9 7 8
X X10.12.12.12

Very cool...

Matt,

xx4555 is one of BH's 'dim w borrowed dominant notes' moveable forms - see A.Kingstone's book pg.61. Indeed very cool!

[destinytot]

This book kind of ties the whole room together.

[Reg]

Wow... I believe things are beginning to shape up. Yea... I don't really know that many hip voicings etc... but I do know how to use one voicing in a million chord patterns. One voicing can become almost any chord.

I'll look for a simple tune that I can use II V's and subs etc... and post in a while. I think I'll find Jobim tune... go Brazilian

[docbop]

This book kind of ties the whole room together.

The Big Lebowski one of my favorite movies. Also every notice two qualities of great musicians, first they all seem to have great sense of humor, and second cuss like a mofo.

[destinytot]

go Brazilian

Ah! Now I get the title of this tune!

[guitarplayer007]

[QUOTE=Reg;601217]OK... I'm going to give out a lot of my personal playing BS. This is my personal approach to comping,(really everything), it's the good shit... you won't get this from your teachers etc...

It's not complicated... but it does take good technical skills to use. It's not really for beginners, but if your trying to play jazz... your not a beginner, right.

I'll start with basic relationships... simple, I generally use basic Diatonic relationships.... it's just I change the diatonic relationships a lot, and have multiple diatonic relationships going on all the time.

The relationships have basic functional value... that functional value is how much the chord(s) wants to move in the harmonic situations. I generally use typical Tonic, Subdominant and Dominant terms and relationships. But I don't limit their use to standard Major/ Minor Functional Harmony.... which is basically based on Modal relationships of Ionian.

I've expanded their usage to work better in jazz situations... performance situations, with the ability to verbally explain using common musical terminology. I try and keep it simple.... which is what it is.

The basic reference is always the tonal target.... if the tune is in Bb, that is the basic reference, even when I expand the harmony and create new tonal targets... micro tonal relationships.... the basic reference is still Bbmaj.

Some tunes or compositions have more than one reference, but that's not the norm. I don't want to recreate the tune or composition... I want to just create more layers for performance. Jazz generally isn't about playing the same thing over and over etc...

So the starting comping reference is Diatonic Relationships... which generally implies keeping the same functional value... keeping the energy to power chordal movement the same as tonal reference.

I'm sure most of you understand basic diatonic harmony....

Tonic.............. Imaj7. III-7, VI-7
Subdominant....II-7, IVmaj7
Dominant.........V7 , VII-7b5

So I've expanded this basic harmonic relationship...

Another note... almost everything is based on roots, they don't need to be played, but their implied.

So... I generally use chords a 3rd above and a 3rd below as Tonic, and expand this relationship to all modal harmonic relationships... example...

Cmaj7... diatonic subs or chords that don't change the function or don't create anymore movement value.
Would be E-7 and A-7

D-7....... Fmaj7 and B-7b5
E-7....... G7 and Cmaj7
Fmaj7..... A-7 and D-7
G7...........B-7b5 and E-7
A-7.........Cmaj7 and Fmaj7
B-7b5..... D-7 and G7

This becomes something like mixing using... basic triads and inversions with functional diatonic modal chord relationships.

I create expanded Diatonic chordal relationships... It might be easier to think of as a collections of Subs. And the subs are designed from an organized tonal type of relationship.

And part of the application... how you use these chords is the voicings... Their all designed from the top down.

The top note and the melody or lead line, (the lead line doesn't always need to be voiced, somewhat like when your playing chord melodies)... that line you create from these voivings... is more important than how you fill the lower notes.

as long as the implication from how you voice below works with the tonal reference, and in this basic example, that would be the expanded Diatonic organized.

Somewhat like how modal comping works... your careful to not imply chordal tendencies that take the tonal reference too far away from what your trying to do.

This is my basic starting reference... there are a few more levels that expand and open other harmonic doors ... how I add other relationships to this basic reference...I generally stretch the tonal targets, with modal Interchange, different jazz related chordal relationships. I use modal interchange to access MM which helps me organized how I use blue notes.

And as I use to say... I use sub of subs... by that I mean, I'll make a sub or different expanded Diatonic chord as a micro Tonal Target and create a micro expanded Diatonic references, which opens my access to different chord patterns. This becomes tricky... it's easy to crash and burn... you can't just rhythmically keep it together.

Anyway... here are some straight expanded voicings I use... I'll start with Maj. Amaj7

X X 4 4 5 5.........,.Amaj

X X 7 9 9 9...........Bmin or F#min

X X 11 11 12 12....Amaj

X X 14 14 14 16.....F#min or Bmin

X X 19 18 17 19..... Amaj... or

So there are a ton of different voicings that can be voiced below that basic lead line... just an Ab arpeggio. And part of the application or how I use is what I imply harmonically with those voicings.

I can alter notes in and change the lead line to imply different styles and feels.

This style of comping is designed around using 7 position fingerings, anywhere on the neck I play a lead lines... I can voice how I choose harmonically without watching...and it generally changes a lot. I obviously have typical lead line chord patterns I like... but they're easily altered to work in different types of music

So A Min could be...

X X 5 5 5 5

X X 10 9 8 8

X X 10 12 12 12

X X 14 14 13 15... which could become

X X 5 5 5 7
X X 10 9 8 10
X X 12 12 12 14
X X 14 14 15 15
X X 17 16 15 17

So you can obviously fill in between the arpeggios... maybe even create a cool lead line you like... I generally create groove lines... And I usually move out of that expanded Diatonic area for harmony to voice weak side melodic notes, I create a micro harmonic pattern within the basic Diatonic area.

This starts to get somewhat more complicated, usually from not being able to play voicings somewhat as needed to imply the harmony you want or hear. And generally your creating as you play, at least that's when it becomes more fun and generally brings the focus and energy levels up.... which generally result in better performances.

In live settings... the level becomes more defined, band locks in, not just performing something memorized, your interacting and responding... playing in a Jazz style.

But... I'm not playing anything out or new... Some players just like different voicings from different references, and want to just throw them together... the more out the better. It's cool, but personally I believe you need to be able to play the basic simple stuff first.
I'll try and get some vids up... it's pretty easy to hear... even if you don't really understand the organization. But you will, feel free to push mo


I have a question, maybe I'm thick, but under the Abmaj voicing's your call one of them F#m and Bm...I don't understand that?
Thx
Ken

[mr. beaumont]

Well, figure out what those notes are in relationship to the chords mentioned...you'll see how those shapes could have multiple functions.

[guitarplayer007]

That actually looks like fm9, but I could be wrong

[mr. beaumont]

Screw looks like, what are the notes?

[guitarplayer007]

My bad I thought this was Abmaj, but its Amaj the F#m is the 6th chord

[SeanZ]

Wow... I believe things are beginning to shape up. Yea... I don't really know that many hip voicings etc... but I do know how to use one voicing in a million chord patterns. One voicing can become almost any chord.

I'll look for a simple tune that I can use II V's and subs etc... and post in a while. I think I'll find Jobim tune... go Brazilian

So that 'voicing' is indeed then a so called 'secret/magic' chord. Just kidding cause I know you spoof that inference but the concept that a single voicing can function well within many different patterns is more than a little bit of 'magic'.

[Reg]

007... it can be a F#-9 or C#- my mistake not B-, the voicing could be use for B- but that's not the usage in this approach... the point of Expanded Diatonic relationships... Up and down a diatonic 3rd from the target chord.

Amaj7 is the I chord, the tonic. (not Ab) So up to C#- or down to F#-
Amaj7..... A C# E G#

Not sure which voicing your talking about....

X X 7 9 9 9... like a F#-9 because it is the related diatonic VI- chord in reference to Amaj. Just with no Root.
A E G# C# same notes... F#-9 would be F# A C# E G#, take away the root or F#.

X X 14 14 14 16 or X X 2 2 2 4
E A C# G# Same approach those note are or could be a F#- or C#

I changes my original post...

sean... OK... but it still only works in context and with right notes and the chord is always the same chord, just part of a chord pattern... generally 4ths can fake their way through many changes.

Anyway here are a few more vids... their rough but.. I'm lazy sorry. The first one is Agua De Berber... lots of II V's and the seconds on is Broadway... more blusy.... again I'm not using any hip voicings and not that many. I didn't use a pick... trying to not play as much... I'll keep adding tunes... Sorry about being so loose with feels... not in much of a groove... but who cares, it's about the voicings

[targuit]

Nice comping with the Jobim tune. Only had time to listen to the first video, Reg. Excellent feel.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Great contrast in tunes. I still can't believe how hip you can make that limited number of voicings sound over a simple tune structure like "Broadway". I may have to just learn it exactly as played. Forget melodic improv or the head. I could just listen to that comping by itself all day. Great stuff.

BTW, I hope you don't mind, but I'm linking the web address for the original jazzguitar.be threads as I rewatch older videos. Did the same for these two. Let me know if you'd rather me not. You might also consider just posting the thread link in the video descriptions to provide context to drive-by youtubers.

It'd drive more traffic for the channel and the forum...increase search engine rankings etc. I feel like you probably want to get it out there and promote the discussion. Honestly, I'm amazed at the traffic and following you have on youtube from non-forum members, without really working on it. It's interesting to read some of the comments on these videos, most of whom don't know anything about you outside of youtube.

[SeanZ]

Matt, do you have time to diagram some of the voicings he's using? Aqua de Beber in particular, he's moving too quickly for me to get them off of the video.

Actually if he's ok with it, think a very useful 'thread' could be: Reg's Voicings for Comping.

thanks,

[matt.guitarteacher]

Matt, do you have time to diagram some of the voicings he's using? Aqua de Beber in particular, he's moving too quickly for me to get them off of the video.

Actually if he's ok with it, think a very useful 'thread' could be: Reg's Voicings for Comping.

thanks,

I'm slammed right now. I'd be good for a couple of measures here and there. We could crowd source it I guess? :-)

[AlainJazz]

I'm slammed right now. I'd be good for a couple of measures here and there. We could crowd source it I guess? :-)

As far as I can see, Reg already outlined many of the voicings in one of the posts above. At least all the ones he used on strings 4321.

Reg, you get an astonishing amount of mileage out of so few voicings. Very impressive. I love your playing.

[matt.guitarteacher]

As far as I can see, Reg already outlined many of the voicings in one of the posts above. At least all the ones he used on strings 4321.

Yeah. I'm good for most of the diatonic major stuff. There's a good bit of MM/Altered in the 1st one as well though. I'd have to dig in more to some of those, hit the rewind button. :-)

Reg, you get an astonishing amount of mileage out of so few voicings. Very impressive.

+1

[Reg]

Thanks... really, and yea. I'm pretty simple really. At least for most of the stuff I post on this forum. Over the years you go through different phases of what your standard voicings are. I did a lot of the R&B/ funk gigs many years ago... it's hard to get out of that basic approach.... simple voicings with horn like lead lines and always in the pocket.

I'll see if I have some PDfs of voicings... or just notate them out. What would be easiest... to see.

Here's a little hint of the old days...

[AlainJazz]

Thanks... really, and yea. I'm pretty simple really. At least for most of the stuff I post on this forum. Over the years you go through different phases of what your standard voicings are. I did a lot of the R&B/ funk gigs many years ago... it's hard to get out of that basic approach.... simple voicings with horn like lead lines and always in the pocket.

I'll see if I have some PDfs of voicings... or just notate them out. What would be easiest... to see.

Here's a little hint of the old days...

Awesome stuff. Besides the double stops, I still see a lot of the same voicings. You are truly a master of using those simple voicings. I think you've provided everyone here with everything they'd need to move forward with their chomping based on those few voicings. You've proven that they can be used for anything. After seeing this, I'm going to work on cutting down the voicings I use and stick to a few simple ones for a few weeks just for fun.

[SeanZ]

Reg wrote: 'I'll see if I have some PDfs of voicings... or just notate them out. What would be easiest... to see.'

xx4555 format would be great but whatever is easiest for you Reg - thanks again for all of your contributions here.

[edh]

I have some of Reg's fingerings that he has posted. If anybody would be interested in them I'll attach them to a post, with Reg's permission of course.

[SeanZ]

Yes, Please!

[Reg]

Here are basic straight Dominant voicing I use for chord movement... I'll put them in Bb. Try and hear all the lead line possibilities... I only put in one #9 but you can create different lead lines with blue notes or whatever the style your playing implies. You can create the lines in same area of voicings.., or as I do move around, I use octave transposition and juxtaposition all the time.... I jump around with the voicings... just like soloing with single lines.

All these voicings are derived from my very basic diatonic voicing constructed on root 6th,5th and 4th strings... that I have posted before.

Don't get these basic voicing mixed up with how I use these voicing with my expanded diatonic relationships application... of using these voicings All these voicings are with reference to Bb dominant, Bb7

Basic Bb13

6 X 6 7 8 8
X 5 6 5 6 6

X X 6 5 6 4
X X 8 7 8 6
X X 9 8 9 7
X X 8 7 8 6

6 X 6 7 8 X
X 5 6 5 6 X

X X 6 5 4 4
X X 6 5 3 3
X X 6 5 4 6
X X 6 5 3 6

X X 6 7 8 8
X X 6 7 8 6 or X X 6 5 6 6... from X 5 6 5 6 6
X X 6 7 8 9
X X 6 7 8 6 or X X 6 5 6 6

X X 8 10 9 10
X X 8 8 9 8
X X 8 8 9 10
X X 8 8 9 11
X X 8 8 9 8

X 11 12 12 13 13
X X 10 10 11 11
X X 12 12 13 13
X X 13 13 13 15
X X 12 12 13 13
X X 10 10 11 11

down 8vb or stay up there,

X X 1 1 1 3
X X 6 5 4 6
X X 6 7 8 9
X X 6 7 8 8
X 5 6 5 6 6

[guitarplayer007]

Here are basic straight Dominant voicing I use for chord movement... I'll put them in Bb. Try and hear all the lead line possibilities... I only put in one #9 but you can create different lead lines with blue notes or whatever the style your playing implies. You can create the lines in same area of voicings.., or as I do move around, I use octave transposition and juxtaposition all the time.... I jump around with the voicings... just like soloing with single lines.

All these voicings are derived from my very basic diatonic voicing constructed on root 6th,5th and 4th strings... that I have posted before.

Don't get these basic voicing mixed up with how I use these voicing with my expanded diatonic relationships application... of using these voicings All these voicings are with reference to Bb dominant, Bb7

Basic Bb13

6 X 6 7 8 8
X 5 6 5 6 6

X X 6 5 6 4
X X 8 7 8 6
X X 9 8 9 7
X X 8 7 8 6

6 X 6 7 8 X
X 5 6 5 6 X

X X 6 5 4 4
X X 6 5 3 3
X X 6 5 4 6
X X 6 5 3 6

X X 6 7 8 8
X X 6 7 8 6 or X X 6 5 6 6... from X 5 6 5 6 6
X X 6 7 8 9
X X 6 7 8 6 or X X 6 5 6 6

X X 8 10 9 10
X X 8 8 9 8
X X 8 8 9 10
X X 8 8 9 11
X X 8 8 9 8

X 11 12 12 13 13
X X 10 10 11 11
X X 12 12 13 13
X X 13 13 13 15
X X 12 12 13 13
X X 10 10 11 11

down 8vb or stay up there,

X X 1 1 1 3
X X 6 5 4 6
X X 6 7 8 9
X X 6 7 8 8
X 5 6 5 6 6

Awesome TY!!!!
Ken