Looking for the best book on creating chord movement to use on standards

[destinytot]

I was not there... and my answer was not addressed to your teacher and Oscal Giglia))).. I answered to you. Anyway I understand your point... The easiest way to understand how cadence works is to go through some classical piece of music (better from late baroque to classical period - up to Beethoven but no further than Schubert)... for me at least it's simpler than to speak in general terms. If you're interested in it - you could pick one and we could give it a try right here

[55bar]

Sorry for being a turd. Maybe not you usually. It just seems too be epidemic on the forums lately. Particularly confusing and difficult to read when quotes are actually attributed to the wrong person (like you reply here).

I use tapatalk as well. Are you using Android or I-phone?

You aren't being a turd, and I TOTALLY get what you mean, but if you look through 99% of everything I've posted I always try and use the correct protocol, like I said sometimes technology just glitches or it could have been operator error, I'm usually in an orchestra pit trying to post between numbers :-/

Serves me right for not concentrating on my Job :/

[matt.guitarteacher]

You aren't being a turd, and I TOTALLY get what you mean, but if you look through 99% of everything I've posted I always try and use the correct protocol, like I said sometimes technology just glitches or it could have been operator error, I'm usually in an orchestra pit trying to post between numbers :-/

Serves me right for not concentrating on my Job :/

I'm about 99% phone-on-the-go as well...

[Jonah]

Isn't the classic American songbook tune structure AABA loosely based on the classical sonata form? I'm sure I read that somewhere.I always thought bebop had similar aspects to some of the Bach classical guitar pieces I played. (A sense of forward momentum, a 'walking' bass line, and a long melodic line in eighth notes which outlines the harmonic progression).

With all respect, Graham... to think that AABA form has some resemblance with sonata form is to misunderstand the sonata form first of all...Actual even treating it as AABA - that became quite commen - is very special way to look at it...In classical period that form would have been most probably treted as AB like two sections with differen beginnings.Probably historically there was some influence of sonata form through classiac composer's songs and opera arias but it but it does not matter any more... like Gothic Arch in Notre- Dame de Reiems does not say wnything about islamic art where it originally most probably came from...As per be-bop jazz lines... I agree - taken separately the show some resemblance to baroque lining out the harmony with the melody... melodic voicing of the harmony... but again when we look at the whole thing it seems so different that it is just impossible to compare to me

[55bar]

I'm about 99% phone-on-the-go as well...

It's great when it works

[Jonah]

Peter Spitzer, on his fascinating music blog, briefly mentions Jobim's borrowing from Chopin:"There’s also “How Insensitive,” which is partly based on Chopin’s Prelude #4 in E minor. I only mention this to round out this article. I’m not sure how to get a good quote out of it." These articles, however, relate the characteristic chord sequences of several Jobim tunes to classics from the Great American Songbook: Peter Spitzer Music Blog: Jobim's "Out of Nowhere" TunesPeter Spitzer Music Blog: "Bewitched," "Este seu olhar," and "So em teus bracos"And there's a follow-up article:Peter Spitzer Music Blog: More Jobim Tunes With Borrowed Chords

I think most part of European cinema music from 60-70s borrowed from this Chopin's prelude...

[grahambop]

With all respect, Graham... to think that AABA form has some resemblance with sonata form is to misunderstand the sonata form first of all...

Actually it was Leonard Bernstein who said it!

[Reg]

If you just take the sections of sonata form, (loosely)... think of the exposition as an "A" section... which was and is repeated many times. Call the development the "B" section and the recapit. "A"...skip the coda and not use the structural composing aspects of the music.... you could end up with AABA. Hmmm maybe not, pretty loose in almost all aspects.

Getting back to movement... what is the difference between using different voicings and using different changes.

Whats the difference between using different changes and using chord patterns.

How many different types of chord movements are there...

I hate too get into this... but what creates... a magic chord, or a magic voicing.

Jonah... the micro relationship usage... always needs to be related to the macro... or in relationship to tunes, using a tonal target of one chord or chord pattern... generally begins with tonal reference to the basic key of the tune.

What make tonal targets work is their relationship to the song. Tonal targets are generally not separate mini songs within the tune.... I guess they could be... but not usually.

If you start to get back to traditional composition... There is either a template or form that the composition fits into and you either follow standard practice or you try and create the same or a different version of the same thing. Or something new that still contains enough of traditional elements that the composition still works, still relates to tradition.

But your generally notating or writing all this out... it's the same every time. There are obviously newer works with different improvisational sections or parts with options etc... but generally playing in a jazz style would be like having hundreds of written compositions in front of you and the other musicians and you chose which part to play based on what the other musicians are playing... It's not random, you choose because of what's implied.

[SeanZ]

went to bed last night thinking about Alan's book, BH, chord movement etc and woke up in the middle of the night with an 'a-ha' moment. Suspect that most of you here have understood the following for some time but decided to post this with the hope of helping those who're still struggling as I have been.

We've already established that playing a min6th chord 1/2 step about the root of a dom 7 chord gives you b9, 3, #11, b7 of that dominant. Lets use Db7 as the dominant so you would play Dm6.

However one of BH core concepts is that a dom 7 chord is interchangeably related to 3 other dom7 chords a min3rd apart. I.E. Db7 is interchangeable w E7, G7, & Bb7 (BH refers to these as brothers & sisters). My big a-ha was that if the 4 dom7 chords are a 'family' (& related), and Dm6 can be substituted as Db7 w alterations, then Dm6 can also be sustituted for the other 3 dom7 chords in that family which are E7, G7, & Bb7. You can easily prove this to yourself by resolving Dm6 to A6 or F#m7, C6 or Am7, & Eb6 or Cm7 & of course to Gb6 or Ebm7 (I of Db7).

Once you get your head around that, it's also true that the (4)bIIm6 substitutions for the (4) dom7 chords in the 'family'
are also interchangeably related. So Dm6, Fm6, Abm6, & Bm6 can be interchangeably substituted for any one of the 4 dom7 chords and all will resolve to I6 and related minor in keys of Gb, A, C, & Eb.

Hope I've transmitted this in a way that's helpful and not too confusing.

[grahambop]

My big a-ha was that if the 4 dom7 chords are a 'family' (& related), and Dm6 can be substituted as Db7 w alterations, then Dm6 can also be sustituted for the other 3 dom7 chords in that family which are E7, G7, & Bb7.

I'm not sure about Bb7. Isn't the 5th of D min6 (A) a bit awkward there? Makes a maj7 sound in a dominant 7 chord.

[SeanZ]

your point is well taken, you would definitely need to be careful using the A from Dm6 - however, it does resolve by 1/2 step to the 5 of EB6.

I'm not sure about Bb7. Isn't the 5th of D min6 (A) a bit awkward there? Makes a maj7 sound in a dominant 7 chord.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Getting back to movement... what is the difference between using different voicings and using different changes.

Whats the difference between using different changes and using chord patterns.

How many different types of chord movements are there...

I guess you're getting at the whole idea of chasing after a million different voicings and arbitrarily deciding which ones kind of sound good in particular contexts without knowing "why" (in terms of the overall harmony)? I really like the idea of exploring the harmonic relationships more. Seems like you're using more of simpler forms in different contexts to create more elaborate harmony, rather than just "stacking up" more on the base changes?

If you start to get back to traditional composition... There is either a template or form that the composition fits into and you either follow standard practice or you try and create the same or a different version of the same thing. Or something new that still contains enough of traditional elements that the composition still works, still relates to tradition.

But your generally notating or writing all this out... it's the same every time. There are obviously newer works with different improvisational sections or parts with options etc... but generally playing in a jazz style would be like having hundreds of written compositions in front of you and the other musicians and you chose which part to play based on what the other musicians are playing... It's not random, you choose because of what's implied.

I get the impression that you had most of your basic "playing" stuff together when you got to school and were really able to focus on compositional-level form etc.

I'll admit to not owning a real hefty theory or composition text, mostly "what to play over" type resources. Long term, I'm pretty interested in doing more with harmony, beyond just voicings. I'd love to be able to improvise the real boiled-down, out-there type changes that I hear the Keith Jarretts of the world playing. He's not just subbing chords.

What (or who) shaped your philosophy on all of this stuff? Where is the amateur to start with it? When you talk about doing a basic analysis of a tune, I get the feeling that you're looking at it from a pretty different level than I am. Ha ha! :-)

Always appreciate your thoughts.

[55bar]

If you just take the sections of sonata form, (loosely)... think of the exposition as an "A" section... which was and is repeated many times. Call the development the "B" section and the recapit. "A"...skip the coda and not use the structural composing aspects of the music.... you could end up with AABA. Hmmm maybe not, pretty loose in almost all aspects.

Getting back to movement... what is the difference between using different voicings and using different changes.

Whats the difference between using different changes and using chord patterns.

How many different types of chord movements are there...

I hate too get into this... but what creates... a magic chord, or a magic voicing.

Jonah... the micro relationship usage... always needs to be related to the macro... or in relationship to tunes, using a tonal target of one chord or chord pattern... generally begins with tonal reference to the basic key of the tune.

What make tonal targets work is their relationship to the song. Tonal targets are generally not separate mini songs within the tune.... I guess they could be... but not usually.

If you start to get back to traditional composition... There is either a template or form that the composition fits into and you either follow standard practice or you try and create the same or a different version of the same thing. Or something new that still contains enough of traditional elements that the composition still works, still relates to tradition.

But your generally notating or writing all this out... it's the same every time. There are obviously newer works with different improvisational sections or parts with options etc... but generally playing in a jazz style would be like having hundreds of written compositions in front of you and the other musicians and you chose which part to play based on what the other musicians are playing... It's not random, you choose because of what's implied.

Hi Reg,

I suppose at first you can look at a voicing and say "ah ok I'll now use that instead of Bb13" I found the problem with this was that "magic voicing" just sounded so incongruous when played with my stock voicings.

I'm finding more that understanding the progression and how I can target a chord then approach it in time playing the subs on a weak beat, it's only now I'm understanding the importance of developing a groove or rhythmic pattern then working around that.

The Magic voicings are pretty static if you don't know how to implement them in a progression.

[targuit]

What the hell is a "magic voicing"? Seems I missed that one in theory class.

[Jonah]

If you just take the sections of sonata form, (loosely)... think of the exposition as an "A" section... which was and is repeated many times. Call the development the "B" section and the recapit. "A"...skip the coda and not use the structural composing aspects of the music.... you could end up with AABA. Hmmm maybe not, pretty loose in almost all aspects.

very pretty loose, Reg, to me... most of all because it ignores key relations that are extremely important to sonata allegro as a form..

please, do not take it as if I want to insist on it anyway - it is just tat the difference is really important to me here...

Whats the difference between using different changes and using chord patterns.

How many different types of chord movements are there...

I hate too get into this... but what creates... a magic chord, or a magic voicing.

Jonah... the micro relationship usage... always needs to be related to the macro... or in relationship to tunes, using a tonal target of one chord or chord pattern... generally begins with tonal reference to the basic key of the tune.

What make tonal targets work is their relationship to the song. Tonal targets are generally not separate mini songs within the tune.... I guess they could be... but not usually.

If you start to get back to traditional composition... There is either a template or form that the composition fits into and you either follow standard practice or you try and create the same or a different version of the same thing. Or something new that still contains enough of traditional elements that the composition still works, still relates to tradition.

But your generally notating or writing all this out... it's the same every time. There are obviously newer works with different improvisational sections or parts with options etc... but generally playing in a jazz style would be like having hundreds of written compositions in front of you and the other musicians and you chose which part to play based on what the other musicians are playing... It's not random, you choose because of what's implied.

I do not quite get, sorry... to me it sounds very close to what I said - or not?

[Jonah]

Actually it was Leonard Bernstein who said it!

He also called The Beatles 'Schuberts of our days' -- though I was a Beatles fan - but it is just ridiculous -- with all respect to other Bernstein's achievement (of which in music I know only few((( unfortunately(( really...

[55bar]

What the hell is a "magic voicing"? Seems I missed that one in theory class.

Read back a few posts, I never thought of it as a magic voicing, I just thought of it as a group of notes from melodic minor that can be seen in various ways.

To be honest I did the grunt work with this chord back at college, I only use it in 3 inversions but it finds its way into all my comping patterns.

If you have ever put an 11th into your stock -7b5 chord you will be using at lest one inversion.

I just think of it as a dominant chord either altered (used as a TTS) or static.

Nothing magical.

[docbop]

What the hell is a "magic voicing"? Seems I missed that one in theory class.

Only taught at as they old legends would say.... The University of the Streets. Chord Pluralities is that a term used in traditional harmony classes? I only took a year of traditional harmony so only did the basic stuff.

[Boston Joe]

I think I learned the Barry Harris method years ago without knowing it was the Barry Harris method. If i understand it correctly, it's just harmonizing a bebop scale so that as you work your way up the scale, you get alternating 6th or m7 chords with diminished 7th chords in between. So, you'd get, e.g., C6 (root position), Ddim7, C6 (first inversion), Fdim7, C6 (second inversion), Abdim7, C6 (third inversion) Bdim, for a C major bebop scale.

Is that more or less right?

[55bar]

Very nice 55 - I'm also a student of Barry Greene, which lesson is that?

Hi Sean thanks,

You know what I can't remember, I took it off a lesson where it was sort of buried among other stuff, funnily enough it wasn't a blues lesson, I've not been able to find it since, tbh I'm trying to get away from copping stuff and learn how to create this stuff on the spot like Reg, I got LOADS of stuff off his YouTube channel HIGHLY recommended! (Thanks Reg!)

I think once the idea of reg's target chords sank in (or is beginning to) coupled with some stuff I already know or learned by listening to joe pass, this stuff (with practice) ie, playing along for hours over grooves becomes more of your own, as we all feel time and phrasing differently?

Any thoughts?

[Reg]

Yea... nice 55bar...your in great direction. and yea... you need a system to be able to perform on the fly... play jazz. Tonal targets...is generally the easiest. It also forces you to be aware of what your playing in any context.... and what other players are playing... and also create quick analysis of tunes etc...

The groove thing takes organized practice. I've posted a lot on rhythmic concepts. It takes time and it takes time to verbally get into it also.

[docbop]

What the hell is a "magic voicing"? Seems I missed that one in theory class.

Oh no another name for it, someone should warn Barry people are going to laugh at him. Hummm wonder if he teaches it to his students at the University of Florida.

The Secret Jazz Chord - Video Lesson ? Barry Greene

[Moonray]

Hey targuit

Doc's right ....."The Secret Jazz Chord" is the name Barry Greene used to teach about chord plurality
via that one voicing that has at least six different identities and uses.

Barry's one clued up guy and is not one to take himself too seriously ....in fact he has lively sense of humor
and was just having some fun in using The Secret Chord .....but not kidding around about the concept.

[guitarplayer007]

Hey targuit

Doc's right ....."The Secret Jazz Chord" is the name Barry Greene used to teach about chord plurality
via that one voicing that has at least six different identities and uses.

Barry's one clued up guy and is not one to take himself too seriously ....in fact he has lively sense of humor
and was just having some fun in using The Secret Chord .....but not kidding around about the concept.

Barry is an amazing guitarist!!!!

[Jonah]

By the way Alan also use 'funny' terms in his book (probably it's Barry Harris'?) - like 'The One with Fifth in the Bass' (for basically cadential 5/3), 'Important Minor' (cadential iim7)...but I think it could be also a good way to abstract a bit from classical terms because they imply reference to classical relations