-
Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
As I say I like to keep things simple and those are some simple things that will explain a lot of stuff and get you a lot of mileage.
-
12-20-2015 03:25 PM
-
It's interesting to hear many of you not want to understand what your playing, make it simple etc... Why is that, is it a cover for not being able to play something, or excuse for mistakes. I mean you might as well play with out knowing any changes or names of chords, scales, arpeggios... it's all the same. Just use your ears... don't bother to learn tunes etc...
Or maybe just play simple tunes... there really isn't anything wrong with that. World, Alternative, Blues, Reggae, Ska, pop, hip-hop... You can play standards in that style... use triads and classical style of harmony. Don't get past 7th chords and chord tones, call everything else embellishments... or sounds you just need to be able hear, not understand. I play lots of gig just like that.... but I don't call those jazz gigs, and I'm definitely not playing in a jazz style. I also play jazz gigs and don't bother to think etc...
It's just... I've hosted Jazz Jams for years...lots of them, and it's fun to watch and listen to amateurs perform, some are really great one night, the next, they suck. I was usually good about giving cues so at least no one gets lost.... generally verbally and loud... most guitarist only come up for air once in a while.
You don't need to understand everything and everyone's references, (although it helps and really does make you a much better musician), but you do at least need your personal understanding of the music. And if your just going to listen and copy different notes played by different musicians... memorize and plug and play those memorized notes... it's going to take years... a life time and generally most won't get there. There being.... able to play jazz tunes you don't already have memorized.
Take a simple standard, I believe they used the tune in the Practical Standards Thread...In Your Own Sweet Way.
You need at the very least, a basic understanding of the Form, the spatial thing. You can screw up all the changes, the melody... your solo, rhythm etc... but if you at least have the physical shape, the FORM.. the spatial thing together. You can perform any tune. So the tune is 32 bars with an interlude... skip the interlude, it's 32 bars.
Those 32 bars are divided into four... eight bars sections....
The 1st, 2nd and 4th eight bar sections are the same... call them "A's"
The 3rd eight bar section is different........................... call that "B"
So Form of the Tune is A A B A
That will get you through the tune... but maybe you need some tonal targets... what notes and chords to use with reference to ONE note A Tonal target. The tunes key sig. says Bb there's a clue.
So the simplest analysis would be... the final bar is Bbmaj7.... so everything is just motion or movement towards that tonal target... Bb.
You might notice that old relative minor target note of "G" or G-7 is also going on.... the only tricky part is the ....
Ab-7 Db7 / Gbmaj7 Cbmaj7 /.... other wise the rest of the eight bar section All relates to "Bb".
You could just plug and play licks, memorized patters... whatever all with relationship to "Bb". Chanh a few notes, or use Bbmin pentatonic pattern for the 5th and 6th bars and just feel and use your ears through the "A" sections... that's all the melody does, it just used a few more chords.
So you could see that the target of bars 5 and 6 ... Ab-7 Db7 etc... is Gbmaj7 or bVImaj7 of "Bb"... which is from using Parallel Minor of Bbmaj.... Bbmaj becomes Bbmin. through use of borrowing from classical tradition... or Modal Interchange from Jazz tradition....
either way, Bbmin. Aeolian note pattern creates that chord pattern and Tonal Target of Gbmaj. as IV chord... like the IV chord of a Blues
Or you could just play Eb pentatonic, Eb Gb Ab Bb Db think of it as a IV chord in a Blues... it is a sub-Dominant function... and if you want even use Willies pentatonic pairs... just approach the target chord of Gb... or each chord of the pattern... that might be just as complicated as actually understanding the harmony...
Or the changes can easily fit into dominant cycle pattern... another method of trying to understand harmony. Another box or flavor.... it's all good, what ever works for you personally.
Anyway... when you at least create tonal targets... you'll at least begin to hear and feel how motion works, chord motion. And if you at least have targets.... whether you want or not... harmonic organization will happen. That organization, whether planed or by chance will result in you at least sounding like you know what your playing. And in reality... you do, from using your your choices, ears, feel whatever you do... in an organized spatial Form.
Hey Matt sure... I'll glady play through Stella... it's just another tune, that can be played in a number of style etc...I'll go through and verbally make analysis with use of tonal targets... which creates where and what to use as motion chords.
There are no one answers... there are always possibilities...that's why most enjoy performing jazz.
-
Originally Posted by NSJ
-
So then the 6th on the 5th can function as either a ONE or a TWO? Is that correct Alan?
Originally Posted by A. Kingstone
-
Dan Haerle refers to this extremely versatile chord as a "Magic Voicing' http://www.danhaerle.com/magic%20voicings.pdf
Barry Greene calls it the Magic Jazz Chord and did a great lesson on it - you can preview that on YouTube. Btw, in attition to the 5 functions you mentioned, that same fingering can also by EbMaj7#11 as well as G Aeolian and D Phrygian (VI & III in Bb)
[QUOTE=55bar;596508]Originally Posted by NSJ
-
Originally Posted by SeanZ
Yes Sean, correct.
Navdeep, yes I cover Borrowing in both context you mention.
Best
Alan
-
[QUOTE=SeanZ;596675]Dan Haerle refers to this extremely versatile chord as a "Magic Voicing' http://www.danhaerle.com/magic%20voicings.pdf
Barry Greene calls it the Magic Jazz Chord and did a great lesson on it - you can preview that on YouTube. Btw, in attition to the 5 functions you mentioned, that same fingering can also by EbMaj7#11 as well as G Aeolian and D Phrygian (VI & III in Bb)
AWSOME thanks for this.
-
[QUOTE=SeanZ;596675]Dan Haerle refers to this extremely versatile chord as a "Magic Voicing' http://www.danhaerle.com/magic%20voicings.pdf
Barry Greene calls it the Magic Jazz Chord and did a great lesson on it - you can preview that on YouTube. Btw, in attition to the 5 functions you mentioned, that same fingering can also by EbMaj7#11 as well as G Aeolian and D Phrygian (VI & III in Bb)
Although the second voicing in the Dan Haerle article are pretty useless for my small hands. I prefer A Eb G D bottom to top. Like the Am7b5 chord on 12th fret with pinky stretching to the note D (11th)
I bar the chord so I have my pinky and 2nd finger free for the Mel min lovlelyness.
-
[QUOTE=matt.guitarteacher;596696]
Originally Posted by 55bar
Thanks for explaining this, as you can see by all my other posts where I used quotes I do know how to do it.
I think tapatalk which I use on my phone sometimes goes a bit funny.
Sorry if this has caused you any inconvenience, it wasn't intentional.
-
Here we go... the magic chord.... now if you can just get a jazz box where the fingerings of that magic chord will light up on the fret board... talk about simple.
Sorry... I just can't resist. This is the kind of stuff musicians make jokes about at gigs....really, I'm not joking. Guitar players are in some parallel universe.... anything but what it actually is.
Yea Destiny I'll check out the posts... and make comments. I've only have a few more gigs and commitments for the rest of month... I'll really get into posting a bunch of examples... not sure about the magic chord... but I'll get into the difference between playing what's implied harmonically and playing neutral voicings that can work in multiple harmonic contexts.
You ever have to solo over players that don't know how to comp harmonically... or bass players who only know how to solo and never imply.... you know the root of the chord. Whats even better are drummers who never play time, any kind of groove.... or maybe play or set up the downbeat.... I do... you end up supporting the player comping, implying the changes and keeping the groove together.... not that much fun.
-
Originally Posted by Reg
Last edited by 55bar; 12-20-2015 at 07:54 PM.
-
Ps thanks doc, I edited as I don't want to come across in the wrong way.
I'm going to "Erez" but in a less dramatic way..... Just sort of slip into the night
-
Originally Posted by 55bar
Agreed I first heard of the Magic Chord a long time ago from Sid Jacobs, later Sheryl Bailey, then a few others mention it. Maybe it will sit better with other with nerdy name of Chord Pluralities. It just looking at a same chord but changing the bass and seeing what it creates.
-
At this point, it might be worth pondering upon Einstein's (often misquoted) statement:
It can scarcely be denied that the supreme goal of all theory is to make the irreducible basic elements as simple and as few as possible without having to surrender the adequate representation of a single datum of experience.
-
I went ahead and ordered Alan's book. I presume it will be somewhat duplicative of Ronnie Ben Hurr's DVD, but I hope both of them reinforce the same important BH concepts in different ways such that BH's way of thinking becomes thoroughly internalized.
For myself, I'm hardly advanced at anything, having only playing guitar for a few years. Not even close. I have no aspirations of being a professional musician, but I just try and play for my own enjoyment and try to get better all the time. Life would be dreary without music.
At at the same time, i don't try and simply mimic fingerings, tabs, etc. I try my best to understand the song, within my understanding of functional harmony. I think this is where a lot of the OPs issues and frustrations originate. He needs to understand some of the basics of functional harmony.
For me, that means trying to understand the tonic, the movement from the dominant to the tonic, The role of the subdominant with all this, The use of the diminished chord as an extension or part of the dominant chord , the interchangeability of (a) I, iii and vi; (b) ii and IV; (c) and V and vii. In addition, the use of secondary dominants , tritone substitutions, etc. and unraveling the layers of the onion to get to the essential core.
A couple years ago, I had the honor of driving around and having dinner with Oscar Ghiglia, as he came to visit my teacher. I wouldn't presume that anybody here knows who he is, but he was Segovia's greatest student, having studied with El Maestro for over 10 years. You know what they talked about at dinner ? The fundamental relationship and essential cadence in total music between the dominant and the tonic .
If it's good enough for them, it most certainly is good enough for a completely low level schmo like me .
-
If it's good enough for them, it most certainly is good enough for a completely low level schmo like me .
-
You know what they talked about at dinner ? The fundamental relationship and essential cadence in total music between the dominant and the tonic .
but again if you speak about movement it's not the way it is treated there as in jazz in practical way...
movement from I to V in classical music is pretty simple...
in this case it is a movement from the key of I to the key of V what brings in complexity
Classical composers did not think in chords and realtions of chords within a key - there's not so much to think about since you've learnt it.. all these realtions are quite established long ago...
They think of realtions of keys... that's what makes that music move... the ambiguity of chord in the universe of 24 keys functional tonality... and this realm is really limitless and some of modern music shows is not yet dry by far...
In jazz it's kind of microscopic approach... you take - for instance - I - V chords as diatonic model (borrowed from classical) and here you have a problem how to move from I chord to V chord and back.. because it's actually where you should have movement in jazz...
So all the jazz approaches seem to tend to turn a chord changes into a kind of micro-form.. and create an ambiguity for chords realations from classical pint of view staying within one key... but this classical point has no meaning any more since even the ntion of key changes in jazz...
By the way Alan's book shows it quite clearly... when the key's mentioned there it is only about a key for certain turnaround or short changes... here the key means local diatonic realtions - nothing more...
and let me stress implied diatonic relation...
but if you throw there superimposed harmonies or subs or look at it from perspectives of modea - or even all together - then it's enough to imply ambiguity to these two-three chords
Again I'd like to stress the idea of implication: the changes treated in jazz are so short that we can really imply any concept we want to it... with some fancy, knowledge, and ears - and of course practical skills..
And that's another difference from classical... in classical these realtions are determined by the whole form... we cannot imply modal concepts to Mozarts V-I cadence just because the whole form of Mozart's sonata of Bach's fugue is determined by the relations of functional tonality...
This micro approach in jazz may lead to fragmentary playing... so I think it is necessary to focus on the whole song or solo form too especially...
That's why it is so important - while learning - to follow your own mwlodic sence and to put aside any concept whevevet they contradict it
By the way - I remember - it seems to be Wes who said in the interview that the only real problem he has is to achieve real integrity in performance...Last edited by Jonah; 12-21-2015 at 04:46 AM.
-
I begin to get a bit uncomfortable with the notion of a fundamentally different approach to music between the classical world from the Baroque period through the twentieth century Impressionists and the evolution of jazz. Certainly much of the jazz roots derived from Afro-American and Cuban traditions leading to the Blues and even New Orleans style music. But, many jazz composers were inspired by classical themes, including the work of Chopin (Jobim) and Debussy, et al. (Bill Evans).
I agree that few of Bach's compatriots would have asked him his chord progressions and use of m6ths to help the poor sod get his harmonic references straight, but it more likely to me that jazz is an offshoot of the great tree of music. With its own "canons" and treatises on harmony - more "permissive" than some of its forbearers but still an offshoot.
The above is just my personal opinion, not meant to dismiss or insult anyone who has a different opinion.Last edited by targuit; 12-21-2015 at 10:03 AM.
-
Hey I'm not disagreeing with anything you have said Jonah. Just saying for myself, but I don't put the cart before the horse . That is, in terms of analyzing a song, I aspire to peel back the layers of the onion (The implications-superimpositions, etc) and to be able to extract something essential that I can work with. Maybe in 10 years, when I've put 6000 -10000 more hours in, I will hopefully have moved onto a different point of view
With regard to the above referenced conversation about functional harmony, I also remember my teacher's response -"yes the V-I cadence is very important, but there are also other important considerations ". But of course, he was speaking not only as a classical musician, but as a jazz musician . Apparently, there was this one time when Julian Bream asked him to play with him In s duet in a jazz setting. He said that Mr. Bream's harmonic understanding in a jazz setting was that of a 1930s Jazz musician.
In any event, all that is still way above my pay grade, I'm just trying to not bite off more than I can chew and still maintain the appetite for learning something new every day and always extend and expand my horizons.
-
Originally Posted by 55bar
I use tapatalk as well. Are you using Android or I-phone?Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 12-21-2015 at 09:48 AM.
-
12-21-2015, 09:44 AM #546destinytot GuestOriginally Posted by Jonah
Originally Posted by Jonah
-
Originally Posted by NSJ
-
12-21-2015, 10:05 AM #548destinytot GuestOriginally Posted by targuit
"There’s also “How Insensitive,” which is partly based on Chopin’s Prelude #4 in E minor. I only mention this to round out this article. I’m not sure how to get a good quote out of it."
These articles, however, relate the characteristic chord sequences of several Jobim tunes to classics from the Great American Songbook:
Peter Spitzer Music Blog: Jobim's "Out of Nowhere" Tunes
Peter Spitzer Music Blog: "Bewitched," "Este seu olhar," and "So em teus bracos"
And there's a follow-up article:
Peter Spitzer Music Blog: More Jobim Tunes With Borrowed ChordsLast edited by destinytot; 12-21-2015 at 10:36 AM. Reason: typo
-
Originally Posted by targuit
I always thought bebop had similar aspects to some of the Bach classical guitar pieces I played. (A sense of forward momentum, a 'walking' bass line, and a long melodic line in eighth notes which outlines the harmonic progression).
-
Originally Posted by targuit
Gibson Les Paul '50s Tribute
Today, 12:39 AM in Guitar, Amps & Gizmos