Looking for the best book on creating chord movement to use on standards

[55bar]

Yea... good discussion Matt... organization is an amazing tool, even if one just plays the same thing at the beginning and at the end... it can work, and all the organization is just that same thing at beginning and end.

Another organizational point... notes or melody and changes lining up vertically, rhythmically etc... you can change horizontal alignment just as you can change vertical alignment. Just as you use subs or modal interchange... it's very common to have melodic notes, melody or improv not be spatially in alignment with changes... generally there is some type of organization going in... pulling from something before, or something to come, or even deceptively implying something.

Generally when members talk about what has too be... it's from not being aware. Whats the difference between a beat being implied as compared to being played. Awareness or in performance generally skill levels. Nothing good or bad...

Example being... play a I VI II V or version of as Vid by Dix posted by 55bar... anyway what's the difference between that VI being a sub for the tonic or being a secondary V of II ... or when you play III-7b5 to VI7b13 to bVI13 to V7b13...

In C...... Cmaj7 to A-7 to D-7 to G7
.............C6/9 to A7b13 to D-9 to G7b13
.............E-7b5 to A7b13 to Ab13 to G7b13

So whats changing is the harmonic rhythm... the functional targets, you have primary and secondary tonal targets which become like rhythmic accents patterns.

So were comping, were not soloing, were trying to create interactive part for the soloist to create relationships and develop them etc... there are lots of possibilities. You always need to be able to adjust or change what you are playing, are thinking of playing etc... your not the main soloist... your improving, but the point of your improve is to back the soloist. anyway thanks and I'll try and post some more quick examples, and keep them simple.

Hey Reg,

Thanks for this, so question how would I make the stuff I posted earlier in this thread (not the all the things stuff) the turnaround stuff in F.) more like what you are talking about?

I understand what I'm doing here, using some subs and cycles but i don't think it what you are talking about?

Loving this thread btw.

Thanks for everyone's great posts.

[Reg]

Hey 55bar... took while to find your post, very cool nice use of standard subs and melody on top... I totally dig that sound, use of subs with melodic minor references, at least some.

But ... I'm sure you know... there is no rhythm right, only short phrases, right. No comping going on... solo rubato playing.

To take using those voicings and melodic phrases to becoming comping... is very different. Your really performing solo, right. Try and use those style of voicing, adjust as needed to comping over a tune your don't really know. You want to get to the point where your using the changes as compared to the changes using you.

I can tell you technical info that will help you organize your usage... but you will get more out of it if I just help and you work out some of the details... I don't really know your playing... but you sound great, if you have some technique and as i said can use changes etc... it will happen fairly naturally.

Just think of how to organize rhythmically and the same with harmony and melodic lead lines etc... it's not complicated really. You want patterns to repeat and imply or at least be in touch with the tune and style being performed.

Everything I'm talking about is just terms and methods to help create that organization... as compared to memorizing what your playing. Just like with MY Romance the 1st four bars is just repeated in relative minor with bars 5 -8. That is basic organization of using melodic and harmonic usage. When you perform... your doing the same thing.... It's not that much fun to perform the basic changes, the same way over and over... like your not even there. But there many ways to still imply the tune while creating movement or pedal like non movement.

The last point I was making about I VI II Vs etc... was about what your tonal target is.... the notes besides the melody and basic chord tone change from choosing different tonal targets... where the chords are from, or even if your just using embellishments or added notes types of usage. So the tonal harmonic rhythm of what your playing.

I'm hittin road but will check back in latter.

[matt.guitarteacher]

If you just learn the basic changes and have three versions of each based on root 6,5 and 4 string, You'll have more than you need to comp through almost anything. You just need to learn how to comp or create chordal movement. Like I always say with jazz and generally with most live performance music... using a lead line works best.

Reg, I'd love to do a thread discussing your reference voicings for lead lines especially with re. to melodic minor. I don't know quite how to organize approaches when it comes to MM because there are so many applications beyond just functional MM itself. Maybe in the coming year when things settle down? Are you back in January? I know December is nuts for most of us.

[destinytot]

Re. modal interchange, it's 99% about harmonic rhythm as far as I can tell.

Honestly, modal interchange makes zero sense on paper, just talking about it theoretically, and trying to slog through it, as a beginner, using theories. You have to see a real player doing it. I used to try to include altered chords or altered runs over dominants and just thought they sounded horrible. That's because they did. You can't play this stuff without regard to time "targets" and harmonic "targets". Usually Reg is referencing basic harmony and then, with the basic reference established, branching out. So, it's not just an arbitrary "whatever" thrown in.

Most of what he's doing (in showing basic comping) through standards gives the illusion of sounding very "inside" or diatonic, simple to the listener. That's because he's using the outside stuff to imply basic harmony. The outside stuff is on the weak beat, side of the beat, or harmonic rhythm. Again, none of this makes sense on paper or if you don't know what is going on with the harmonic rhythm. You could "lean" on the outside stuff more or less if that's the sound you want, but it's a choice. And honestly, it's more of a rhythmic choice than a harmonic one - in the beginning especially.

I think we have to stop reading so much about the stuff theoretically, and watch the videos. Go to youtube and watch a video on accessing youtube's playback speed feature, and slow them down. Some Reg stuff may go by fast, but there's a lot going on. At the same time, the basics are very doable and the parts are interchangeable. Later you can use the same ideas to simply reference different tonal centers etc., achieving new palettes of sounds. This is an area in which I have miles to go as well, but the answer is there in the videos if we really want it.

Really helpful overview, Matt - and the part about rhythm resonates. There's a lot to read here. (Speaking of reading, I rehearsed with flute and cello today. It worked because they're both marvellous people, highly-skilled and trained musicians, each with a fabulous instrumental sound/'voice' - but they needed a lot of direction. We have two gigs this week.)

[targuit]

This discussion has become quite interesting and educational, particularly as regards terms like "modal interchange".

I hope in the spirit of comity and the appreciation we all have for great playing and what might pass for "genius" in some ways, you will pardon me for linking something I stumbled upon tonight on YT - a long video of a Romanian jazz festival where Andreas Oberg gives a kind of live master class. I've never quite appreciated what kind of a monster player Andreas actually is. I link this here simply for the hope that you will find his comments fascinating and his playing humbling.

Good looking, young, monster player actually making a living playing jazz on his 'road' Benedetto guitar - it must be hard sometimes being Andreas Oberg.

He speaks about his past and about his playing, theory, ears, love of music, how he practices including scatting...this is just worth watching for his chops and his thoughts which are quite articulate. It is like with guys like Jonathan Kreisberg. These guys kind of blow you away... As for the video, it is rather long and you might want to skip ahead to where you see Andreas come out. Or if pressed for time, check out his comments around the 40.00 minute or so. Dude is impressive.

[55bar]

Hey 55bar... took while to find your post, very cool nice use of standard subs and melody on top... I totally did that sound, use of subs with melodic minor references, at least some.

But ... I'm sure you know... there is no rhythm right, only short phrases, right. No comping going on... solo rubato playing.

To take using those voicings and melodic phrases to becoming comping... is very different. Your really performing solo, right. Try and use those style of voicing, adjust as needed to comping over a tune your don't really know. You want to get to the point where your using the changes as compared to the changes using you.

I can tell you technical info that will help you organize your usage... but you will get more out of it if I just help and you work out some of the details... I don't really know your playing... but you sound great, if you have some technique and as i said can use changes etc... it will happen fairly naturally.

Just think of how to organize rhythmically and the same with harmony and melodic lead lines etc... it's not complicated really. You want patterns to repeat and imply or at least be in touch with the tune and style being performed.

Everything I'm talking about is just terms and methods to help create that organization... as compared to memorizing what your playing. Just like with MY Romance the 1st four bars is just repeated in relative minor with bars 5 -8. That is basic organization of using melodic and harmonic usage. When you perform... your doing the same thing.... It's not that much fun to perform the basic changes, the same way over and over... like your not even there. But there many ways to still imply the tune while creating movement or pedal like non movement.

The last point I was making about I VI II Vs etc... was about what your tonal target is.... the notes besides the melody and basic chord tone change from choosing different tonal targets... where the chords are from, or even if your just using embellishments or added notes types of usage. So the tonal harmonic rhythm of what your playing.

I'm hittin road but will check back in latter.

Hey Reg,

Firstly thank you for taking time to write such a detailed reply.

Yes I'm aware it's rubato, so for comping over tunes what do you suggest? Just work through tunes in time with a metronome or play a long?

Transcribe piano players left hand, or is this all pretty futile unless I'm doing gigs?!

I still have no clue about tonal targets? Is this like picking a target chord in a progression and working through the cycle towards it?

[Reg]

Hey 55bar, thanks... man this is why I'm on this forum.

No don't transcribe. Unless your want something from specific player etc... There are two approaches to learning, memorizing and coping works, but doesn't develop technical details about how to develop those skills...
When I was young I would record melodies with a metronome... didn't have rhythm tracts etc... anyways practice using what chords you know backing the melody. Your going to find comping licks that you like. You'll hear and begin to understand how to support the melody, rhythmically, harmonically... and melodically... the melodic lead line you play will support not steal the show.

So yea Tonal Targets.... they're like the main rhythmic points of a groove or tune where what you've played before that point....harmonically use as a reference for tonal organization.

Modal Interchange is a harmonic tool for creating relationships.( organized source for more chords), where the new chords have a tonal reference and don't create a modulation, even when the changes are not diatonic to the key.

Tonal Targets are the same thing... only they are a different method for organizing how you choose the chords. Just a micro or smaller version... generally they are just one chord... that chord becomes the tonal target.

That chord becomes the tonal reference by it's self. You then use your skills... use chords, chord patterns to approach, or Target... that chord. Those approach chords.... use that chord as a Tonal Target, and the organization for what chords you use to approach relate to that one chord... the tonal target.

Of course... the more organized you are with your use of what to use to approach those tonal targets and how everything relates to the tune etc... the better or worse.

Most players already use them... just aren't aware of organization with usage etc...

I'll try and put up something short and simple

[Reg]

Reg, I'd love to do a thread discussing your reference voicings for lead lines especially with re. to melodic minor. I don't know quite how to organize approaches when it comes to MM because there are so many applications beyond just functional MM itself. Maybe in the coming year when things settle down? Are you back in January? I know December is nuts for most of us.

Hey Matt... so would I and would dig having you help. I think I miss too much and go over the top too much. I'm never really sure of what musicians already understand... You can also just keep this thread going... The subject is all about creating movement... just gets into understanding how to organize what you use.

[55bar]

Hey 55bar, thanks... man this is why I'm on this forum.

No don't transcribe. Unless your want something from specific player etc... There are two approaches to learning, memorizing and coping works, but doesn't develop technical details about how to develop those skills...
When I was young I would record melodies with a metronome... didn't have rhythm tracts etc... anyways practice using what chords you know backing the melody. Your going to find comping licks that you like. You'll hear and begin to understand how to support the melody, rhythmically, harmonically... and melodically... the melodic lead line you play will support not steal the show.

So yea Tonal Targets.... they're like the main rhythmic points of a groove or tune where what you've played before that point....harmonically use as a reference for tonal organization.

Modal Interchange is a harmonic tool for creating relationships.( organized source for more chords), where the new chords have a tonal reference and don't create a modulation, even when the changes are not diatonic to the key.

Tonal Targets are the same thing... only they are a different method for organizing how you choose the chords. Just a micro or smaller version... generally they are just one chord... that chord becomes the tonal target.

That chord becomes the tonal reference by it's self. You then use your skills... use chords, chord patterns to approach, or Target... that chord. Those approach chords.... use that chord as a Tonal Target, and the organization for what chords you use to approach relate to that one chord... the tonal target.

Of course... the more organized you are with your use of what to use to approach those tonal targets and how everything relates to the tune etc... the better or worse.

Most players already use them... just aren't aware of organization with usage etc...

I'll try and put up something short and simple

Quick question: what helps you decide on a tonal target?

[Reg]

Jay thanks for your input... yea Andreas is incredible players, and has been around for a long time etc... but as far as being articulate about the music.... WTF are you talking about. His approach is feel, he generally says Theory is about finding a name for what you play. He has very little understanding of theory, harmony etc... let alone understand it. Which doesn't really mean anything except... he's a great player and doesn't real know or care about anything else.

[Reg]

Hey bar55... quick answer... the style of music I'm performing. Styles generally imply harmonic references.

[55bar]

Hey bar55... quick answer... the style of music I'm performing. Styles generally imply harmonic references.

Man, I think all this is way beyond me.

[Reg]

Another answer... what ever you feel is the most important chords.... In the first 8 bars of My Romance... which chords do you think are the most important. Generally the Imaj chord and the relative Min chord... The VI- chord, then maybe the V7 chords. If your in Bb... The Bb maj chord and G-... then maybe the V7 chords of each. So the result is the same as if you took the style of music... The tune is from Musical by Rogers and Hart from the 1930s which is composed using basic Maj/min functional composition style... basic western Music.

That Music is organized around a tonic and it's V7 chord relationships and the related min chord or the VImin as another I chord...and using the same basic organization for movement... V7 to I... The same organization for maj and Min.

Anyway... with most tunes your going to naturally end up with basic tonal targets. What gets more complicated is when you move on.... when you don't use those basic guidelines. Start using Melodic minor and Blue Notes as part of different guidelines... and then add modal guidelines. The only thing that's probable beyond you...is you've never thought about it before. Are you aware of Harmonic Major and it's related chords... I'm just using because most aren't and the only reason it might be beyond one is because they're just not aware of it.

[destinytot]

Hey targuit, that was great.

I particularly liked the piece at 50:00 with strings 4 & 5 tuned an octave lower, and the piece played with thumb at 35:00: what he does with Abba's Winner Takes It All walks the talk.

Moreover I now recognise certain sounds in his Abba piece as modal interchange.

Without going overboard - although I admit that modal interchange looks like the most exciting concept I've ever come across - and without saying that I like the particular sounds involved, I'm pleased to be able to identify this device by name. It's a start, and I'm hungry for more.

Because, when I like a sound, I want/need specifics: the whats, the whys - before the hows.

As I'm self-taught, I don't want to struggle with terminology for sounds that don't convince me - for which my ears are my guide.

(Different disciplines value different evidence. I'm interested in evidentiality as a feature of language, and I'm often disappointed - 'underwhelmed' - by the actual contents of the pot at the end of a rainbow of proof.)

I definitely find modal interchange compelling.

So I'm going to get comfortable with using precise terms - the 'jazz' nomenclature and frame of reference in use on this thread - because learning requires rigorous thinking,

I totally agree with Matt about exploiting the full potential of video for learning. I call it 'exploded viewing'. (It's perhaps ironic to also be learning about picking and technique when these are incidental or peripheral to the topic.)

To return to modal interchange, what I hear in Andreas Oberg's Abba piece seems a bit like the reverse of CESH ('Contrapuntal Elaboration of Static Harmony'); the melody remains static whereas the harmony doesn't.

What I think is significant is that the note stays put while the harmony moves outside the diatonic key. It's great that Andreas Oberg applies it to an Abba tune, and I found the unexpected reharmonisation quite effective.

On the other hand, I find the composition Beatrice quite beautiful.

Beatrice is analysed as a guided learning exercise in the Berklee modal interchange video I posted yesterday Looking for the best book on creating chord movement to use on standards. @02:22 on that video, the same device I hear Andreas Oberg use is described as 'Sustained notes over chord changes (melodic pedal point) creating cool "change of color and function" events'.

(Personally, I'm interested in modal interchange to play what has been misnamed 'smooth jazz' - semantic bleaching - just the good stuff...)

[mr. beaumont]

Just checking in, nothing to add yet, but we sure are on track again!

[destinytot]

Sorry to gush, but this is great - expressed really clearly, Reg. Thank you!

...

Modal Interchange is a harmonic tool for creating relationships.( organized source for more chords), where the new chords have a tonal reference and don't create a modulation, even when the changes are not diatonic to the key.

Tonal Targets are the same thing... only they are a different method for organizing how you choose the chords. Just a micro or smaller version... generally they are just one chord... that chord becomes the tonal target.

That chord becomes the tonal reference by it's self
....

[Jonah]

The harmonic rhythm relates to how often the chords change. If they change once each measure, The harmonic rhythm is equal to a whole note . If they change every two beats such that there are 2 chords per measure, the harmonic rhythm is equal to a half note. If there are four chords per measure, the harmonic rhythm is equal to a quarter note

I'd rather say it's how suspension, tensions and releases in harmony (speaking of functional harmony) correcpond to the metric accents.. this is one of the most important semantic tool of classical composition.

All Bach's syncopas are harmonic.

In jazz lines it works in the same way - the melodic notes are involved in sounding harmony and where you play them effects harmonic rythm...

[NSJ]

The other thing that I've started messing around with, since I really enjoyed playing triads and I feel they give one greater mobility and sound possibilities, if that it is possible is to play major triads cycling up minor thirds over a dominant chord. so, over a G7, a GM triad, BbM triad, DbM, and an EM triad. (R, b3, b5, bb7).

It sounds very interesting to me, I'm sure if I investigate the voices it gives you a lot of the diminished harmony terms of the extensions over that G7 . It's more interesting just to do it in terms of investigating the various voicing possibilities. Lots of not so complicated but interesting opportunities for voice leading, in terms of matching root position and two inversions (63 and 64 in figured bass -- sorry, I just took a piano class, and it was all about the figured bass ) for each chord, mixing and matching string sets as well .

[Jonah]

I appreciate any ideas and usually try to imply - and I am sure that practical result is the most important..

But in respect of theory .. it seems that jazz 'methods' and 'lessons' are overloaded with these 'take dim arpeggio and play over that dom chord and see what happens' or 'play melodic minor over something that has nothing to do with melodic minor'...

these kind of 'tricks' of course have practical importance... but I think first they provoke 'occasional sound' - people first try and the see what it sounds like - instead of hearing first and try to realize on the instrument
Though educational process is complex and involves both... but the second should always be on top I believe...
I am not against these tricks if people really hear what they are after... but mostly it's the opposite.

I think if we get into it it is important to analyze harmonic context where

R, b3, b5, bb7

can be applied to dom7 chord.. rather than thinking of three triads over it (though again probably from practical point - after you defined this harmonic context - thinking in triads could make it simpler to apply at the tempo or realtime playing)

And harmonically it could be really different issues, depends on where these notes are played and the context...
b3 could be treated (for example)
- 'blue note' (both in C and in G)
- #9
- or even chromatic passing tone


b5 could be
- #11 (and thus Lydian dom)
- blue note


bb7
- 13th (all in makes G13)


But back to the issue of harmonic rythm - how we would treat it depends much on where all these notes would be played and how long the harmony would sound - and what will be before and after it...

If in the comping there's just basic G7 and the soloist plays over - call it just formally - G13 (#9) it really depends on accents context and phrasing what will come out...

What I mean is that it would be probably much more efficient if we treat each of these notes - not as a part of some 'borrowed' and unrealted triad but as a part of some concept - blues/ or diatonic as dominant chord that we will then consider possible suspensions and realease/ or modal


NSJ,

that was not aimed at you, I always read your posts with interes.. great ideas and I use some... in this case it just provoked these specualtions.. besides you pointed out the interest of investigating the voicings of it.. so my post is a kind of development of your idea... rather than critics

[NSJ]

Jonah,

Have a look at Jack Zucker's theory of "dododephonics", or "12 Tone theory of chord substitution". Where in any diatonic chord simply moves up a minor third. I have to say this is above my pay grade . I just think of major triads built by dominant sevens incrementing up minor 3rds. That's as much as I can handle. But Jack apparently has an entire system built upon this .

Sheets of Sound Lessons Page

[Jonah]

Have a look at Jack Zucker's theory of "dododephonics", or "12 Tone theory of chord substitution". Where in any diatonic chord simply moves up a minor third. I have to say this is above my pay grade . .

Thank you, if I have chance I'' try to have a look at it...

...I just think of major triads built by dominant sevens incrementing up minor 3rds. That's as much as I can handle.

But why not just play 3rd minor?

[MarkRhodes]

Jonah,

Have a look at Jack Zucker's theory of "dododephonics", or "12 Tone theory of chord substitution". Where in any diatonic chord simply moves up a minor third. I have to say this is above my pay grade . I just think of major triads built by dominant sevens incrementing up minor 3rds. That's as much as I can handle. But Jack apparently has an entire system built upon this .

Sheets of Sound Lessons Page

Thanks for the link, Navdeep. I am not ready for the Coltrane of the '60s yet----I have enough trouble with Coltrane from the '50s! (And tend to prefer it, though as my knowledge and awareness increase, my appreciation of Coltrane's later work may increase in kind.)

I've never seen a copy of Jack's book. One of these days...

[docbop]

Jonah,

Have a look at Jack Zucker's theory of "dododephonics", or "12 Tone theory of chord substitution". Where in any diatonic chord simply moves up a minor third. I have to say this is above my pay grade . I just think of major triads built by dominant sevens incrementing up minor 3rds. That's as much as I can handle. But Jack apparently has an entire system built upon this .

Sheets of Sound Lessons Page

I haven't read Jack's book but way it's been told to me is moving in minor 3rd is diminished sound and many times the chords have a b5, but not always (it's Jazz). Then moving by major 3rds is the augmented sound again many times the chords have a #5. I find the moving in major 3rd harder to pull off, but the moving in minor 3rd I hear mentioned by old school Jazzers all the time. Jazz loves all things symmetric.

[vintagelove]

The other thing that I've started messing around with, since I really enjoyed playing triads and I feel they give one greater mobility and sound possibilities, if that it is possible is to play major triads cycling up minor thirds over a dominant chord. so, over a G7, a GM triad, BbM triad, DbM, and an EM triad. (R, b3, b5, bb7).

It sounds very interesting to me, I'm sure if I investigate the voices it gives you a lot of the diminished harmony terms of the extensions over that G7 . It's more interesting just to do it in terms of investigating the various voicing possibilities. Lots of not so complicated but interesting opportunities for voice leading, in terms of matching root position and two inversions (63 and 64 in figured bass -- sorry, I just took a piano class, and it was all about the figured bass ) for each chord, mixing and matching string sets as well .

Hello, in case some are not familiar with the above, remember the diminished chord a half step above any of those dominants is also the same chord. So....

G7 = Abdim, Bb7, Bdim, Db7, Ddim, E7, Fdim

Its all the same thing. Now, here is where the fun starts,



Try playing any vocabulary you have off the b7 of the dominant, off of the b7 of the other dominant equivalents. Hmmm, tasty...

[docbop]

Hello, in case some are not familiar with the above, remember the diminished chord a half step above any of those dominants is also the same chord. So....

G7 = Abdim, Bb7, Bdim, Db7, Ddim, E7, Fdim

Its all the same thing. Now, here is where the fun starts,



Try playing any vocabulary you have off the b7 of the dominant, off of the b7 of the other dominant equivalents. Hmmm, tasty...

You can move other chord type around by minor 3rd for example a common move is in a II-V to just move the II up a minor 3rd in place of the V.