Is it ok to reduce any chord type to 3 notes?

[bobsguitars09]

Is it ok to reduce any chord type to 3 notes? and when playing with a real book with a piano player?

can you reduce a major 11 chord C-E-G-B-D-F♯ down to 3 notes and still get enough harmonic content across? if so what notes can go away?

what about all chord types that have 4 or more notes? can they all be reduced to 3 notes? or no?

[bobsguitars09]

Is the "1" in a sus 4 chord important for the overall desired sound of a sus 4 chord?

[jordanklemons]

The simple answer is yes, you can. But it really all depends on the situation and what you're going for. You mentioned playing with a pianist. Chances are good they're going to be playing the full voicings. They got lots of fingers!

IF that's the situation, we have the ability to trim down what we're playing. I don't have the slightest clue where you are with your playing, but IF you're still really new and having a hard time struggling to keep up with the chords, and the piano player is playing the full voicings anyways, a good place to start might be to just get used to a simple 3-note voicing for each chord including the R-3-7. These are little skeleton chords that won't sound super hip or modern, but can take you through just about any situation.

So instead of trying play a full C-E-G-B-D-F#
You play C-E-B (or C-B-E)

IF that's already super easy for you and you want another 3 note option that will sound way cooler and more interesting without getting in the piano player's way...you can try and work with the upper structure of the chord. Basically, go to the highest 3 pitches in the full spelled out chord. So for this CMaj7#11,9 chord you mentioned, the 3 highest pitches are

B-D-F#

That means if you play a basic B minor triad, and the piano player plays the full chord...it should sound pretty hip.

You could really find ANY of the triads within this chord (C-E-G...E-G-B...G-B-D) but I prefer the highest one...as it brings us into the upper structure of the chord we're dealing with. Which I like. Very colorful up there.

[pingu]

great answer from jk ....
also i would add that voicings
with less notes in them can often
sound "better" (lighter , more agile)
that the thumping big chords ...

its strange but true that
most of the time you don't
need the root note in there ...

[Drumbler]

I like to comp with 2 note chords, just the 3rd and 7th on the D and G strings.

Try it, you'll like it.

[MarkRhodes]

I like to comp with 2 note chords, just the 3rd and 7th on the D and G strings.

Try it, you'll like it.

That's great stuff to know, and not just for comping. (You can build lines around those two-note groups by adding chromatics and other chord tones.) Sid Jacobs talks about this in his book "The Changes".

http://www.amazon.com/Changes-Jacobs...2C+the+changes


Tim Lerch did a class / DVD called "The Art of 2-Note Accompaniment" in which he suggests being able to move those two-note groupings down a string (so you're using the A and D string for them) and that this give a solo guitarist much more room on top to play melodies. There are real advantages to that, but it is more of a solo-guitarist skill.

Tim Lerch - The Art of Two Note Accompaniment | Jazz Guitar Society

[bobsguitars09]

Thank you so much

[GuyBoden]

If it sounds good to you, use 2 or 3 notes, using only one note might sound good too. If you can make it sound good, try playing simple rhythmic motifs with a few single notes.

[MarkRhodes]

The simplest thing to drop is the fifth. "Shell voicings" of root, 3rd and 7th will get you through most tunes in a fake book. If the alteration is a melody note (-which is often the case), if you're not playing the melody, you don't need to play that note. (In many such cases a 3-note m7th voicing is all you need for a m7b5 chord when the flat five is the melody note being played by someone else. Obviously, if you're playing chord melody, you have to hit that note!)

If a bass is playing the root, you may want to let that go too. (Though you may not.)

What's important here---for comping---is that the 3rd and 7th are stable tones in a chord. 5ths and 9ths are often altered, so if you're comping and you play neither the 5th nor the 9th, you're not going to clash with anything the soloist does.

[monk]

Assuming that your intent is pare down a large voicing to it's essentials, the first note to eliminate would be the root, then the fifth.

This would leave you with some type of third and some type of seventh (or sixth).

You can then add a ninth or an altered tone to these "essential guide tones" for a three note voicing that has color but is not a simple triad.

[Irez87]

NO, IT'S NOT ALLOWED. OFF WITH HIS HEAD -- the jazz police

Yes, if you use your ear and listen to the soloist. I actually prefer playing 3 and even 2 note harmonies as they move easier on the guitar... and... another concept... vibraphonists and pianists use 2 and 3 not voicings as well. Hell, when I do my Freddie Green spiel I use one note and try to go for a tenor line. James Chirillo taught me that so it must be at least a little accurate (sorry, frustration after arguing the nature of those FG comps).

I am trying to get to a point where I don't think of voicings at all. Especially in a band with a vibraphonist and a pianist often trading harmonic figures of their own, four and five note voicings would be too dense. I mentioned these ideas before, but they fell flat. Here it goes:

iii-VI-ii-V-I:

x.x.x.5.3.1

x.x.x.4.3.1

x.x.8.5.4.x

x.x.7.5.4.x


And some two note ideas also in Bb:

x.8.x.7.x.x

x.x.8.8.x.x

x.x.7.8.x.x

Can you use these voicings... I dunno... maybe Jim Hall and Barry Galbraith we're wrong... Maybe they didn't know how to play chords so they played this way instead. You may get crap for playing this way, but the guys who actually use there ears instead of their eyes when they play will appreciate it if you play this way when the sound is already really dense.

[Irez87]

were* shesh.

[Irez87]

get a copy of George Van Eps Guitar Method (the small e-book). That book changed the way I comp, even more than the Barry Galbraith bible of comping (Guitar Comping). Both great ways to expand the ear, and the finngas

[Irez87]

Also, going back to the OP (original post) if that major # 11 is held for two bars, you can play partial chords one after another to communicate the sound. I think the problem with a lot of us guitarists is that we think too literally when comping. I am still getting myself out of that habit.

Here, a C major13 #11 sound:

x.3.2.2.x.x

x.5.4.4.x.x.

hold

and...

x.5.4.4.5.x that e is held over from the last voicing

[Frethack]

great answer from jk ....
also i would add that voicings
with less notes in them can often
sound "better" (lighter , more agile)
that the thumping big chords ...

its strange but true that
most of the time you don't
need the root note in there ...

I always thought the root was important, but in practicality skipped it sometimes just to keep up or for playability. Just thought I was doing it wrong and it seemed to work out so over time it became a practice. Nice to know.

[destinytot]

Small chords can sound very good when your tuning is lower than standard.

[Irez87]

here is more blasphemy, a three note movement where two notes are octaves (hushes in the crowd)

in C

x.x.3.5.6.x

x.x.3.4.5.x

x.x.12.9.8.x

x.x.11.9.8.x

I think Jeb Patton calls them embedded octave voicings. Pianists use them a heck of a lot. Tal Farlow used them on guitar from time to time as well. The rule of "don't double any notes" can mess you up if you take it as a dictum that is never to be broken. It messed me up, until I started learning how to use my ear to correct the binds of the "rules"

[Irez87]

Or this in C:

Dm: x.x.7.10.10.x (a doubled fifth, oh no!)

Galt: x.x.6.x.9.7 (a doubled b9, what is he thinking?)

C9: x.x.5.7.8.x

A7: x.x.5.6.8.x

[pushkar000]

That's great stuff to know, and not just for comping. (You can build lines around those two-note groups by adding chromatics and other chord tones.) Sid Jacobs talks about this in his book "The Changes".

http://www.amazon.com/Changes-Jacobs...2C+the+changes


Tim Lerch did a class / DVD called "The Art of 2-Note Accompaniment" in which he suggests being able to move those two-note groupings down a string (so you're using the A and D string for them) and that this give a solo guitarist much more room on top to play melodies. There are real advantages to that, but it is more of a solo-guitarist skill.

Tim Lerch - The Art of Two Note Accompaniment | Jazz Guitar Society

Hey thanks Mark these look really good...worth checking out.

[Irez87]

After a couple more lessons with Jeb (and a lot of sub work and protoctoring to afford taking so many dang lessons) I'd love to do a Chord of the Day thing like Jordan did (quite beautifully, I might add) with three and two note movements next summer. We'll see, hope someone will find the ideas I posted interesting. I have fun playing 'em.

[GuyBoden]

I see/hear chords as collections of notes, I've found that depending on using shapes can be very restrictive in the long term. (But, shapes are great if you need to play a tune you don't really know.)

[christianm77]

Is it ok to reduce any chord type to 3 notes? and when playing with a real book with a piano player?

can you reduce a major 11 chord C-E-G-B-D-F♯ down to 3 notes and still get enough harmonic content across? if so what notes can go away?

what about all chord types that have 4 or more notes? can they all be reduced to 3 notes? or no?

Not only allowed, but usually advisable. Small voicings are great for bands.... They can even be very useful for solo guitar.

A good way to get started is to use 3rd 7th and one other note (11th, 9th etc, sometimes 5.) I would suggest practicing the 3rds and 7ths first, and then put in the top note based on what sounds good to you.

So a typical, very simple, 2-5-1 (in G - Am7 D7 Gmaj7) for me would be
xx55xx
xx45xx
xx44xx

I leave the root to the bass player. They call whether a chord is tritone sub, for example, not me!

For the other voice - I often to use oblique motion - that is at least one voice staying constant from chord to chord. This makes for tight, unobtrusive voice leading that leaves plenty of space for the melody.

xx553x
xx453x
xx443x

You aren't limited to using such simple things, but you get the idea. As a comper, don't play anything too interesting while the soloist is active, and support the groove with a clear pattern. Your job is to support, and 3 note chords are great for this.

[christianm77]

Is the "1" in a sus 4 chord important for the overall desired sound of a sus 4 chord?

No. But V7sus4 is basically the same thing as iim7, and IVmaj7 - as a pre-dominant or subdominant chord. The difference is the bass note really. And that is not always under your control.

Unless you play without bass that distinction is the bassists call. If the bass player desires V7sus4, that's what you have, if they want iim7, that's what you will have :-) If they want a tritone sub - same thing.... So, you would play essentially the same thing for:

G7sus4 G7 Cmaj9
Dm7 Db7 Cmaj9
Dm7 Dm6 Cmaj9
Dm7 G7 Cmaj9
Dm7 G7 (G#o7) Amin11 (no 3)
Dm7/A G#o7 Cmaj9/G
Fm6/Ab Abo7 Cmaj9
etc

xx353x
xx343x
xx243x

All of which are diatonic notes of key - F C D, F B D, E B D

Because the bass has so much power with just one note! Most bass players (good ones) keep it quite open or simple though, because the soloist then has so more freedom, right? But the important harmony is taken care of.

We just do the essential work of resolving 4-3 (of the key) and messing around with 1s and 7s and other notes of the key in what ever way pleases us best. Sometimes putting a bit of chromatic movement if it sounds good with the melody.

When I play solo or duo with a horn or singer, I like to think of the bass as it's own free agent :-) You can do a lot with a naughty bassline.

Hope that makes some sense. Don't step on the bassist's toes - they don't like it and we have enough trouble getting them to do gigs as it is. ;-)

EDIT: try running the chord progressions above in four voices on the guitar with the exact same voice leading on the upper three notes. It's a good fingering exercise. Then try another 3rds and 7ths + one extra note combination. Builds up flexibility.

[christianm77]

The simple answer is yes, you can. But it really all depends on the situation and what you're going for. You mentioned playing with a pianist. Chances are good they're going to be playing the full voicings. They got lots of fingers!

I like it when they don't use the left hand when soloing in these situations, especially in duo or trio with guitar. Pianists do exist who can do this.

Pianists who play a lot in trios, duos and solo can be a pain in the bum.

[bobsguitars09]

best forum ever. you guys are awesome. thanks. keep em coming!