Why do players who are comping avoid the root?

[fernandoamartin]

In baroque music it's very common to have two or three players doubling the bass line at unisson and/or octave and it really works. Of course, in a jazz improvisation it's neither possible nor pretty to double all the notes the bassist plays. But I still wonder if it would work and maybe reinforce the harmony if instead of avoiding the root players who are comping used it at strong tempos one octave above the bass.
That's why I'm asking here: Why do players who are comping avoid the root?
Is it just a matter of taste and custom in jazz or is there some theoretical and/or thecnical reason behind this?

[TH]

I don't know about anyone else but I consider good comping a matter of rhythm and harmony, melodic compliment too. When I'm playing with an interesting bass player, they're covering the root but also where they're playing in the measure is important too. If we're playing complimentary ideas, using space in a way that creates interest, I don't want to be playing a root in a space that they've intentionally left open. I listen to the bass player; sometimes the root works, but my first instinct would be to compliment their ideas rather than double them.
In western classical, particularly baroque situations, the rhythmic roles were more dictated by the convention and the weight of the syncopated accent wasn't even a consideration.
Hope this perspective makes some sense.
David

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Another difference may be acoustic instruments in baroque versus amplified ones.

[snoskier63]

Because the bass player is on it! And I don't know that you need to avoid the root, but perhaps playing the root on top might be less desirable. Others will chime in.

[vintagelove]

It's an easy way to get extensions in your chord voicing. So playing em7 over a Cmaj7 gives you a 9 sound. You get a lot of mileage off chord voicings your already comfortable with.

That being said, the setting makes a big difference. If your doing a guitar duet, voicings with the root can be great. Lastly I would say the players touch can make a big difference. If your hammering the root on the chord, it's going to stick out. If you lighten up on it, or don't play it at all, those voicings still work great.

my 2 cents...

[fep]

It's not that you avoid roots, it's that you avoid low notes.

If your playing with a bass player you usually want to stay out of his range of notes (maybe an exception is if your just doing percussive non sustaining comping). Playing in the low register can muddy things up from an overall band mix perspective.

[drbhrb]

There's not really any problem with playing roots. Even if there is a bass player he's probably only hitting the root on beat 1 anyway.

[mr. beaumont]

I like space. So i'm playing small chords...and if i'm only playing 3 notes, why waste one on something boring like a root?

[jasaco]

Also, if the bassist decides to do a sub (say a tritone over the V7) and you play the bass note of the V itself, it won't sound so great, IMO.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Also, if the bassist decides to do a sub (say a tritone over the V7) and you play the bass note of the V itself, it won't sound so great, IMO.

The root is okay in this case. Suppose it is G7. You play:

G7: xx34x3

The bass plays Db.

Result: Db7b5 (G7b5).

=================

Even playing the 5th is okay.

G7: xx343x

Bass plays Db

Result: Db7b9

[Jonah]

In baroque music it was often a question of 'amplification' - just to make bass line more audible... (why are there 12 violins in big orchestra playing one part?)

Also the tone is important - often it is better that the bass has solid tone composed of all imstruments involved in comping- chord playing - otherwise texture might sound too broken

and this music is much more organized rythmically and harmonically - so there is much more predicatability about it... they do not actually improvize together to such an extent as in jazz - it is not the main idea...

Besides bass line was priority of harpsichordist (organist), theorbist and could be doubled by gamba but if you play continuo using baroque guitar you actually also just comp the chords in lowest position to make harmonic sound - not the bass line

Just to add to what mentioned above about jazz..

jazz harmony to my mind and ear has tendency to be 'rootless'... harmonically root is not that important... in baroque if you drop out root - harmonically you actually get inversion involved and it changes context dramatically (in most cases just ruins it)...

And in jazz it is more important what is general harmonic sound is (scope of note and intervals) and accents of melodic phrasing..


Also just playing involves some references to what is not played but nevertheless meant and undestood

[jtizzle]

A lot of people (as Jeff also looks at it) consider the root boring. I don't, really, any note can be interesting in the right light. Baroque music, although using improvisation based out of the figured bass system, is root heavy because Baroque music was not open to the dissonances we use now. There was no such thing as altered chords, hell, seventh chords were rare (almost exclusively used for dominant chords limited to cadential sections). We have more option to create movement and tension now, so I think accompanists, at least from my POV, avoid roots to make the root the bass player is playing more interesting (i.e. putting it into the right light). If you have a bass player playing C, while you as the guitarist are playing CEGB, the root (repeated or not) is only surrounded by what we consider consonances (in our modern standard). However, in the context of C Major, if the bass player plays a C, and you play D F# G#, you're adding in heavy dissonances. In many cases you also don't want to play only that, but it makes the root sound more interesting. Since we only have so many fingers (pianists included), we avoid the root to make space for something else, or at least, I do.

[fernandoamartin]

Very interesting points of view!
I tried the examples given and they really sound jazzy.
I think I spent so much time studying classical music that it's still challenging for me to understand and try all the possibilities of jazz.
Thank you very much. Any more comments are welcome.

[Aora Blue]

I think a lot of jazz musicians tell students that playing rootless chords like Bill Evans is really hip so a lot of people started to play rootless chords.

[Cunamara]

Well, Bill Evans developed that vocabulary to the level he did because the bass player had the roots and 5th covered.

Here's how I put this together for myself. Jazz is played over the bass line, not over the chords. Everything relates to the bass line- it sets the groove, the tempo, the time and the fundamental harmony. The drummer plays to the bass line (unlike in rock and blues where the drummer sets the time and the bass plays to the drummer). The chordal instrument plays mainly as the tenor voice of the bass line (this is very explicit in the Freddie Green style) and as such does not generally need to play the root and the 5th- the chordal player needs to play the 3rd, 7th and judicious extensions and tensions. The melody instruments cover some of the tenor and most of the alto and soprano voices.

Most guitarists play too much: too many notes in their chords, too many chord beats per section and too many notes per measure when they solo. We'd be better heeding the examples of players like Jim Hall and Ed Bickert, Bill Evans, Miles Davis, etc. Hall was formally trained in composition and understood counterpoint thoroughly which was really evident in his recordings with Sonny Rollins, Art Farmer and Paul Desmond for example. Ed Bickert was able to imply polytonality with three or four notes and made wonderful use of contrary motion and substitution. Bill Evans seemed to understand everything about jazz and to be able to do anything, possibly the most complete jazz musician ever.

I know that for myself when I am playing a lot of stuff- too many notes, too much chordal stuff, etc.- it's often because I am trying to hide the simple fact that I don't have confidence that I know what's going on. I may not understand the song well enough. I may not have enough trust in my bandmates. I may not have a clear conception of what I am playing. Lots of notes seems like a way to hide my uncertainty and doubt. If I play one note in a bar, it had damn sure better be the right note. If I'm not sure, 8 notes will give me something to hide behind.

[Jonah]

I think a lot of jazz musicians tell students that playing rootless chords like Bill Evans is really hip so a lot of people started to play rootless chords.

Man... try to think of people better

[bako]

A root can be the lowest voice, a lead line or an inner voice.
It can serve a role in linear harmonic movements as well as add power and clarity to accented chords.
I'm not sure if it's wise to take a vow of strict root abstinence.

[fernandoamartin]

Playing mainly root and 5th in bass and 3rd, 7th and tessions in guitar makes much sense and the position of notes in guitar favor this. But let me take the subject a little further.
If someone is comping with a piano, he can confortably play 3rd and 7th with the same hand and he will still have the other hand free to play anything. (Not to mention that while he doesn't take a solo, if he plays only in the tenor area he'll leave 4 or 5 octaves without use.)
So what could a pianist or keyboardist do when he's comping to use both hands (and maybe more keys)?

[rcandro]

I think there is also another reason. The concept of tonality emerged in the Renaissance and it was established in the Baroque period. So, in addition to everything that was said, it was necessary to follow certain rules to keep it working. For instance, play a diminished fifth interval in the bass line was prohibited (even dissonances resulting from direct movements were). As time passed, and with the strong establishment of the tonality, the music was ready to accept its own expansion through admission of new procedures leading to the Classicism, Romanticism and finally to the non-tonal and contemporary music.
Furthermore the orchestration and the composition were by many times inseparable things. If you are going to orchestrate some Jazz song you have to take care about doubling the right notes in order to get a good orchestration. Also, in the orchestration the closest intervals are commonly found among the highest notes and the most distant intervals among the lowest ones.

I hope it makes some sense because I'm not so good at English yet.

Cheers.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

It just occurred to me. I was always warned about "the root of all evil". I've never heard anyone bang on about "the #5 of all evil". it's all starting to make sense...

[christianm77]

In baroque music it's very common to have two or three players doubling the bass line at unisson and/or octave and it really works. Of course, in a jazz improvisation it's neither possible nor pretty to double all the notes the bassist plays. But I still wonder if it would work and maybe reinforce the harmony if instead of avoiding the root players who are comping used it at strong tempos one octave above the bass.
That's why I'm asking here: Why do players who are comping avoid the root?
Is it just a matter of taste and custom in jazz or is there some theoretical and/or thecnical reason behind this?

I would say that depends on the style. I like to double strong basslines. I feel it's good for things like certain swing tunes and Bossa, where the bass line is to some extent set. Drop 3's are great for this type of work... You can think of these as style of jazz with a 'ground bass.' Some fusion stuff can be a bit like this too - Metheny's tunes for example.

For style of jazz hamony where the bass improvises a bass line (bebop etc) playing the root can interfere, but if you play inversions it doesn't matter so much. I tend to like little 3 note voicings with tight voice leading for straightahead, generally on string group 4 3 2. Feels like it sits right.

[Koshchei]

Baroque music is a thing of its time, as is figured bass.

As far as leaving the root out, there are two reasons why I might:

1) The bassist has it covered (see Cunamera's post above);
2) Implying a key can be more useful for constructing a musical narrative than rubbing the listener's face in one (that you'll then need to explicitly modulate out of).

That said, there are a lot of reasons to keep the root in too. It really depends on what you're trying to say musically.