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Here's a little thing I was working on tonight. Some 4 note chord voicings, using voice leading, to work through a ii V I in D major.
Eminor11,9 to an A7alt (with no 3rd...sort of a phrygian type sound) to a DMaj9 (also with no 3rd).
It's based on a really simple triad with a 4th note added. This gives 4 possible inversions. I'm using the same 4 chords and inversions to play each of the three chords...just moving them to different frets so that different chord tones are being played to create the changing tonality. Check it out and let me know what you think.
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05-07-2015 02:41 AM
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You been watching the Lage video? I see some (now) familiar voicings.... :-) Thanks for the pdf, will have a go at this....
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Haha...yes! I did check out his video! Its really good! Can't recommend it enough!
Though this particular shape was actually inspired by my teacher. He's a vibraphonist, so we don't talk about guitar playing, technique, fingerings, etc. we just talk about harmony, melodic integrity, and how to approach learning the music in a systematic way. Then I have to take all this stuff and find ways to apply it to the fretboard. He got me into the idea of exploring triads with an extra note. In this case, a triad with an added FA (the 4th). Originally I was working through this 4 note structure using small, 3 note voicings. Each one leaves out the 2nd to highest voice. They're really great and very movable. Then I checked out Lage's video and thought I should have a go at being able to do the full 4 note voicings. Sort of trying to be able to play each grouping as a single note idea for lines, diads, triads, and (as my teach Stefon call them) quadrads (triad with an added tension note. Squeeze as much juice as possible out of each 4 note structure. I'm still at the earlier stages of my exploration of this stuff, but seeing Lage talk about his approach really felt like a pat on the back for heading in a good direction.
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You're learning from Stefon Harris? Cool. I can hear the Lage Lund connection (another plug for that great DVD) but playing through your examples, I was reminded instead of Arnold Schoenberg's "Farben". The spacing for your first Dmaj9 is a straight transposition (with yet one more added note) of that piece's opening chord:
Farben chord - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Yeah PMB, I've been really lucky the last couple of years. Working on my masters has given the opportunity to work some amazing musicians and teachers. The chords are not 100% Stefon stuff. Just related. Sort of taking the things we talk about and extrapolating some of my own stuff out. And very similar to the Lage stuff...as well as what Ben Monder and Shepik talk about a lot.
I'll have to check out the Schoenerg music you're talking about. From just skimming the 1st couple sentences of the page you listed it sounds like a Maj7#5 chord with a natural 13 on top. Pretty hip. I pretty love ANY chord that has an upper structure triad hiding in it somewhere. They're not the only sounds I dig, but there's just something so bright and shimmering about them. A perfection that hard to ignore and hard not to crave in my ear.
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While studying composition at the Conservatorium here in Sydney years ago, I used to escape regularly to the library which at the time overlooked the harbour. I devoured their classical and jazz collection (vinyl in those days!) and soon discovered Schoenberg's "Five Pieces for Orchestra". I'd listen repeatedly to the third piece, "Farben" as I gazed out across water. It was only later that I found it had an added English description in the title: "Summer Morning by a Lake" so your 'bright and shimmering' analogy is particularly apt.
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I don't see that. Don't see much connection by jordan's voicing at the Farben chord.
Originally Posted by PMB
Farben chord is C-G#-B-E-A. Jordan's DM9 voicing is C#-E-A-D.
Transposing the Farben chord up a half-step gives C#-A-C-F-A#.
What am I missing?
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Yeah...it's definetly a very different sound Stu. Though I think what PMB was getting at is if you transpose the DMaj9 voicing down a 4th to AMaj9...that would be an EMaj triad with an added A note.
E-G#-B-A
If you spell it the way PMB was pointing out it was spelled in the first example I wrote out, it was inverted to
G#-B-E-A
Which if you added a C note to the bottom would give us the chord being talked about. Did I get that right PMB? I think that's what you meant.
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Stuart, did you listen to the two examples? Best to trust your ears rather than eyes. Play Jordan's first Dmaj9 voicing and then listen to the Farben chord at the Wiki link provided. Take away the root of Schoenberg's chord and you'll notice that they're identical (albeit transposed by a 4th). It's a very distinctive voicing.
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Beat me to the post, Jordan. I heard the connection before comparing them on the page. As I said, I listened to that piece a lot when I was younger and even managed to slip the chord into a short film I scored at the time!
In jazz parlance, I suppose you could consider your voicing as a ma7#5 with an added 13 and no root.
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Yep yep. Most definitely. I started out this exploring by taking a basic C major triad and adding the 4th degree...
C-E-G + F
It's such a basic diatonic sound, it really acts like a chameleon. So then I put it against all 12 possible root notes. Really only 3 of the potential root notes didn't work. Or at least...I didn't like how they sounded. All other 9 possibilities worked pretty well...each giving their own tonality. I just picked these three out because they were sort of the 3 most basic sounding ones to apply over a 2 5 1, and I wanted to start there. But you can definitely create the Maj7#5(add13) by thinking of the triad as starting on the 3rd degree of the chord you want to build. You can also make lydian sounding chords, sus chords, minor chords, minor b13 chords...lots of options. I'm enjoying exploring the sounds with these guys. Gives a lot of consistency to the harmony even as it moves. And I suppose there's no reason we couldn't then also use it as a mini-scale...a pentatonic scale missing a note (or we could add one more note if we wanted to) and actually use each of these note groupings to improvise single note melody lines over chords.
Lots of options. Just have to pick one and go with it to see where it leads!
Out of curiosity PMB, do you know what instrumentation good ole' Arnie was using to voice out this chord? It's got an interval of a minor 9th in it going from the G# up to the A above it. I actually don't like this particular inversion as much as the other three I wrote out because not only is there a minor 9ths in the chord, but it's right there in the lowest and highest pitch notes...which just accentuates it. I feel like we can get away with this interval in our chords on guitar a little bit easier than the piano, because our overtones must not be as robust and strong...so it's a little bit more okay. But I still try to avoid it. And when I play it on the piano it sounds terrible. And even worse when played by a horn section. I know writing for string sections you can get away with more because they're so sweet sounding and not as sharp and shrill as horns can be. I'll have to go back and see if I can hear how he's using it. Unless you know. Then again...he was all about some atonality and breaking a lot of the rules that we expected from our composers prior to him...so maybe he was using it on purpose.
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As it happens, Schoenberg underlines the division we're talking about as the strings (viola and double bass) play the 'root' with the upper notes taken by an assortment of winds and brass (flutes, cor anglais, bassoons, horns and trumpets).
Here's a link to the score (page 31):
http://imslp.org/imglnks/usimg/e/e0/...79736score.pdf
and a recording (Farben starts 7:06):
I suppose I've simply got to love that min9th. By the way, Lage Lund plays 3rd inversion maj7ths all the time with that same interval framing the voicing. How do they strike your ear, Jordan?Last edited by PMB; 05-07-2015 at 11:25 PM.
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You know, it's just a personal preference thing. It's not like I think they're the devil or anything. And I definitely recognize that it has a place in music and try to use it when I feel it's necessary. I've seen Lage use them and Jim Hall and probably others I wasn't even aware of. And like I said...it tends to bother me less on the guitar than it does on the piano or voiced out for horns. I think it has to do with the fact that we create a far softer overtone series than other instruments...so it's not as abrasive.
And really, it didn't start to bother me that much until I started studying composition/arranging and high level ear training in my school program utilizing the piano far more than I ever used to. As soon as I started playing that interval in chords on the piano it just didn't sit right in my ear. My arranging teacher put it best...
The minor 9 interval obscures the function and quality of the chord.
The way I think of it is that certain sounds I think of as parasites. They can be put into any situation, and tonality, and sort of take over the vibe of what's going on. I hear major triads this way...so I can put an upper structure major triad into the voicing or melodic structure of a tonality, and immediately my ear starts to hear that major triad as the melodic tonic as opposed to whatever is going on in the harmony. Or moving notes/phrases in minor 3rds. Even if the idea has nothing to do with the diminished sound, as soon as I hear an idea being moved up or down minor 3rds, I immediately get the sensation of diminished. The minor 9 interval does that to me too. It's sort of a virus in my ear that finds its host in the chord and sets up shop and really starts to obscure the purity of the chord by bringing its tension out. Which can be cool at times. But in general, unless specifically wanted, I would much rather let each chord have its own life and resonate fully and completely rather than sacrifice its tonality to the murkiness and crunchiness of the min9. That's just me. Like I said...Jim Hall said he loved the 3rd inversion major 7. But again, I wonder if he would have ever used it in a 4 horn arrangement. It goes somewhat unnoticed on guitar, but as I've spent more time at the piano these last 2 years in my school program, I've started to notice how much I prefer to avoid it in my voicings. Especially when arranging voicings for the horns. Then I REALLY try to avoid it. Except for rare instances. But those are usually the exception.
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A quick and easy example of what I mean is the 7b9 chord. Tough to play a 7b9 chord without including that interval. We either have to drop the root note entirely...or, what I often like to do, jump the root up an octave and jump the b9 down an octave.
So a 'normal' E7b9 might be voiced
x7676x
Doesn't sound terrible. But if you take the tritone out from the center and just play the lowest pitched and highest pitched notes
x7xx6x
It's suuuuuuuper tense. Not 'bad' or 'wrong'...just tense. And that's the parasite sound I'm talking about. It sort of infects the entire chord and TO ME take away from the real beauty of this chord. Instead, I usually put the b9 in the lowest note and the root up in the highest voice and play this
x8675x
Neither is right or wrong. But the second one just sounds more pure to me. It allows me to really hear the beauty of the dominant chords function more than the first voicing. And the b9 in the bottom note resolves really nicely down a half step when we move to the AMajor/Minor chord. Just as it could in the highest voice...it just sounds really nice to my ear that way.
Again...just personal preference. I would take the major7 interval between the lowest and highest notes in the 2nd voicing over the minor9 interval from the 1st voicing almost every time. ALMOST! hahah
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I get all that and used to feel the same way. I don't have a real issue with the standard 7b9 except perhaps that it's been 'over-colonized'. I've been incorporating that flipped version a lot of late, e.g. for a minor ii-V-I in A - Bm7b5 (x8775x), E7b9 (x8675x) Am7 (x7553x) Am6 (x7453). Of course, all of this depends on the harmonic context and expectations regarding voice-leading etc. as well. To paraphrase John Donne, no chord is an island. Anyway, nice chatting, Jordan. Always enjoy your posts.
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Hahahaha....DEEEEEFINTELY over-colonized! Well put my man! Thanks for the chat man. And nice voicings for those chords!
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Food for thought.
It's less interesting than what you were talking about but certain sounds have a particular cache. Sometimes over colonised is exactly what you want because you are playing a style. A lot of my work falls into this category - drop 2's for chord melody, drop 3's for rhythm etc..
On the other hand if you want to reimagine the harmony without changing the note content of the chords this is also possible, and an interesting direction. Actually, by avoiding certain colours you develop a particular tint to your playing. Lage seems to seek this actively - other players, Kurt, for example, less so.
I think all of this is good for my harmonic hearing, which is pretty limited. But I really like the way you are thinking. Sounds like you are moving towards your own concept.
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Thanks Chistian! I'm enjoying your spin and points on this...and you're absolutely right. Things that are over-colonized are so for a reason. Nothing becomes cliche without FIRST sounding great and getting used by tons of people.
But yes, you're right...I am moving towards my own concept at the moment. I mean...I suppose in a way, we all are always moving towards our concepts. But for the first time in my music journey I feel that I can finally see my mountain and its peak. It's waaaay off in the distance, and I know I have a long way to go to even get close. I probably won't ever get there...and if somehow I do, I'm sure I'll realize that the peak goes even higher into the clouds than I could have imagined today.
But I've been really lucky to have studied with some phenomenal teachers the last couple of years being back in school again...and lucky to be old enough now to really understand and appreciate how lucky I am and what they have to say. I wouldn't have gotten half as much from these guys had I gone straight from undergrad into a masters program. Seeing how differently each of these guys approach their instrument and their music, and how serious!!!, has really inspired me to do the same. It's made me realize that while I've put in a TON of practice in my life so far...so much of it was done without really and truly listening. It was more like someone told me about a scale and how it works, so because of that I learned it and just started using it. But I never sat and ACTUALLY put each individual note under the microscope and asked myself if I liked it. Or to test out the other notes not in the conventional scales the same way. And just use my ears to guide me. My current teacher basically has a completely unique approach to harmony and melody that, on the surface, sounds ridiculous and stupid and childish. But when you see that he developed it by not taking anything for granted and instead sitting at the piano and testing every note against every chord...it starts to make a lot of sense...and then you hear him play! Good lord the dude can play! hahaha
Anyways. His way isn't THE way. But I often thinking of playing music like painting with sounds...and hanging with him made me realize that I've unknowingly been painting with my eyes closed for the past 20+ years...and I always used to pride myself on my ear. I was self taught for a long time and that really forced me to develop a strong ear. But somehow I went 20 years without actually sitting and using them like I could and should be. But that said...there are sooooo many other great players that don't approach it this way and are still great. It's not THE way. It's just the way that feels most right for me right now. And it's helped me really figure out what my 'concept' is (so to speak) and to get me working towards it. And I just like sharing things with other people, so I thought why not post some of it up here. I'm actually thinking of starting a video lesson blog on my website this summer. If you have any ideas or thoughts about things that might be worth talking about.
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I watched a documentary about Brian Eno and he mentioned that a lot of art is making decisions, conscious or unconscious, about what to leave out. Since I tend to think of advancing my playing by amassing more information and ability, that struck a chord (!) and made me think about what you had said about the 7b9 chord.
I would like to hear and see more about your teacher (with 'childish approach to harmony) sounds right up my street :-)
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I only use the term childish some what in jest. It's actually the most thorough, amazing, deep, system I've ever seen anyone talk about. Well...at least one of them. It's up there. Basically, his approach starts with the ear. Picking a chord type (like Maj7, min7, etc), sitting at the piano, and testing all 12 notes against that basic 1-3-7 chord. Then from there we take all the notes that work in harmony with that chord type and build all the possible fully extended chords.
Once we have all the possible chord types written down for a single category, we're back to the ear and have to learn to identify each one just by ear. Most of them are actually very unique. So the game become to be able to quickly and unconsciously hear the difference. So if a piano player hits some type of min7 chord, I should be able to know immediately if it's just min7, or if it's min11,9, or min13,11...etc etc.
Then once we can hear the chord, we analyze its 3 note upper structure and this gives us our starting point for the melodic approach to playing over this chord. We take those 3 note, plus add 1 more note (based on a series of rules that we have to follow) which gives us a 4 note palate to play with over every chord. This is what I was referring to by childish. I've mentioned the idea of only allowing ourselves to use 4 notes to play over any given chord on these forums a couple of times and in real life to friends and the reaction is always the same. Horror. Disgust. Disdain. Blasphemy. What about the scale?!?! Hahahaha. It seems on the surface to be moving away from musical freedom. I knew my teacher could play on a whole other level, so I trusted him and went with it, and while it took a little time, I can already see that it's going to start offering me more freedom. Less is more. The options that this way of thinking open up are scary. The simplicity of it all. The melodic perfection and integrity of EVERY note that comes out of my instrument. The space to add in chromaticism always knowing exactly where I'm headed and always being able to resolve into perfect sounding notes and phrases....it's like being able to find all these bebop scale options because you can literally play any chromatic line you want, as long as you know where your 4 sweet spot notes are to resolve to.
The next step is to add a 5th note to the grouping. Explore the options there. Then add a 6th note. And then the last step is to add the 7th note and the 'bebop scales'. But he points out that by the time you can hear all that stuff and play all of it...your ear probably isn't going to like the sound of the 7 note scales anymore in most situations. Which I can imagine is probably true. I know the rules well enough that I could be adding the 5th note in on my own if I wanted. But I'm trying to squeeze every drop of juice out of these 4 note patterns. Not just melodically too. But even harmonically. That's where I came up with these voicings. Taking the 4 note structure used over each of these 3 chord types, turning them into the actual chords themselves, and then writing out the inversions.
Anyways...the childish thing was a reference to the 4 note structures and how most people who hear about this think it seems to simple and silly...like the type of thing you'd give a 3rd grader.
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I think it's great. Know your basic materials.... I might have to look into this...
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I wonder how much of Stefon's thinking about 4-note structures relates to the mechanics of his instrument and the use of 4 mallets. Ed Saindon is another vibraphonist who's written a lot about 4-note groups:
http://www.vicfirth.com/artists/vide...pingspart1.pdf
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