function of A13b9 in G major

**craft** · 04-26-2015, 04:54 PM

Hi

Whats the function of this chord in the context of the harmonized major scale? I can't figure it out.

It is the ninth chord in mickey bakers book

**vintagelove** · 04-26-2015, 06:45 PM

Originally Posted by craft

Hi

Whats the function of this chord in the context of the harmonized major scale? I can't figure it out.

It is the ninth chord in mickey bakers book

Hi, it resolves down a half step to the A minor in the book (and up as well). EDIT, on second read it seems you get that but want it's function. It is the equivalent to Bbdim6. To my ear the b9 (Bb) can resolve up or down to the next root.

C# (e) G Bb F#
A13b9=Bbdim6

**craft** · 04-27-2015, 05:33 AM

Oh i see. Thank you very much. Sorry for the total beginner post ;_;

Just trying to wrap my head around the baker chords and see whats their function in the key (tonic, leading tone.. etc.)

Can we say that this chord is borrowed from another key?

**johnhall** · 04-27-2015, 08:03 AM

All due respect to Mr. Baker but I do not agree that the chord should be labeled A13(b9). This harmony has a passing (chromatic) diminished seventh function as Vintagelove says, not a dominant function. I would call this a Bbdim7 with a non-harmonic tone (F#) in the melody.

My favorite example of this harmony occurs in Jobim's "Corcovado".

function of A13b9 in G major-corcovado-jpg

The second harmony is Abdim7 with a non-harmonic tone (E) in the melody. The chord tone is the D that follows, not the E. We would not label this harmony G13(b9).

In your example, substitute the note E for the F# and you will hear the diminished seventh chord and its passing function. Don't just take my word for it, Joe Pass mentions this somewhere in one of his instructional videos also.

John
John Hall | Music for Guitar | Home

**Reg** · 04-27-2015, 09:24 AM

I would think the function of the chord would be determined by where the chord goes, deceptively or as written.

If the chord is notated wrong and is really a diminished or 1/2 diminished chord, either a leading tone diminished or dominant chord.... then that would determine the function. If as John posted...if the chord again is notated wrong and is a non dominant diminished secondary leading tone diminished or a passing diminished, the function would be labeled as such. But the chord can also be just as it is notated... a A13b9 chord with dominant function and resolve with any of the typical movements. When a chord is spelled out fully.... it's either what it says... or a mistake.

Do you understand what function is.... not voicings and voiceleading which are just common choices of where notes go as chords moves, but why the notes move. Generally the organization of which notes create movement create function... or chordal movement.

How is the chord used in MB's example...I haven't checked out MB's books for 40 years...I don't remember him being aware of Harmonic Maj. which A13b9 would be created from typically... all the notes are spelled out except the 4th or 11th, and typically is natural unless other wise notated.

**Jonah** · 04-27-2015, 10:19 AM

Just last week Corcovado was discussed... my idea was actually that this is not passing dim chord here...

I think it may be important to overview the harmonic feel of the whole... at least untill he gets to cadance turnaround to F major - the harmony sounds for me as just inert parallel voicing down..
It's not really functionality - it's not resolving to my ear.. just moving gradually down..
there's not really tension for resolution... he could continue this motion eternally (to Gbdim them to F- then to Edim etc...) and it would sound ok...

Probably some modal concept could explain it also somehow... and he makes cadance to F major it also sounds to me like he changed harmonic means...

Besides he sits on every chord very long .. which makes them all more or less stable and independent...

**Jonah** · 04-27-2015, 10:50 AM

I cannot check now but as I seem to remember... I think that this chord is played by bass and piano after Gmaj7 in Misty recording of Wes Montgomery (key of G)... and it does not sound like passing dim chord with non-choedal F# there...

And I am sure I heard not once treated like this - to add motion over maj harmony with the bass move to minor third above

**vintagelove** · 04-27-2015, 01:09 PM

Originally Posted by Reg

How is the chord used in MB's example...I haven't checked out MB's books for 40 years...I don't remember him being aware of Harmonic Maj. which A13b9 would be created from typically... all the notes are spelled out except the 4th or 11th, and typically is natural unless other wise notated.

When it appears with the Bb in the bass it resolves down to A minor. It is also used between Gmaj7 and A minor.

Something like

Gmaj7 A13b9 Am7 D7, Gmaj7 G13b9 Am7 D13b5b9 (his favorite chord it seems!!!) Gmaj7

Hope that helps.

**Trickey Dude** · 04-27-2015, 04:37 PM

A13b9 is also an important chord in Django's Castle. Great chord; play an A13 and just add Bb on the bass.

**christianm77** · 04-27-2015, 07:11 PM

Yes, Django's Castle A13/Bb - with a big E in the melody.

This chord is pretty old school. There are many examples of dim7's with non-harmonic melody notes from the 30s.

**christianm77** · 04-27-2015, 07:16 PM

Cocovado sounds like a very standard 30's style turnaround to me, albeit in extended time values. Django could have played it:

Am7 G13/Ab Gm7 C7 (Fo7) F

I play this stuff all the time on 20s/30's style gigs.

The Fo7 can be understood as a related chord of C7+5 - I love this subsitute for swing and trad jazz style harmony.

Very stock harmony where I live. Probably comes from Choro harmony which is similar to early jazz harmony.

**Reg** · 04-27-2015, 07:57 PM

Yes...thanks Vintagelove... just voicings spelled as MB wanted to. Just common Diminished usage between diatonic chords. I second all of the above. As far as borrowing... you could play the numbers game and justify an analysis that could use borrowing or modal interchange... but not really needed. Very common parallel voice leading approach for dealing with adjacent chords. As christian and others pointed out. Fill in the blanks.

**christianm77** · 04-28-2015, 04:09 AM

Yeah I suppose it all comes down to the large class of chromatic chords with diatonic melody notes in the treble.

Basically, as stated you have a simple melody and want to create some interest by adding some sort of chromatic moving figure in the other voices - most often in the bass, but also in the middle voice.

These things often end up looking a bit complicated in chord symbols.

**Groyniad** · 04-28-2015, 08:43 AM

its great just as a dominant chord too. typically a flat nine either works alone or with a sharp 5 - its great to play a natural 6th (13th) just under the flat nine (not in the bass). b7/3/6/b9 often sounds more interesting than b7/3/#5/b9

**Jonah** · 04-28-2015, 08:46 AM

Cocovado sounds like a very standard 30's style turnaround to me, albeit in extended time values. Django could have played it:

Am7 G13/Ab Gm7 C7 (Fo7) F

I play this stuff all the time on 20s/30's style gigs.

yeh it's common turnaround for my ear too... I believe it was one of the first comping changes that I learnt to play in my teens that sounded 'jazzy' to my ear... without really thinking of its harmonic concept

But in Corcovado - though it looks the same - to me all the combination of factors gives it another hearing quality...

I mean in a kind of absolute reduced form I would agree with you.. but how it is realized in this certain piece I hear it differently..

But here it's not that clearly defined by the context... I think both hearings are quite 'legitimate'

**vhollund** · 04-28-2015, 10:35 AM

Show us the rest of the progression
Functionality is relative to more than the key
It could simply be a V/V

**christianm77** · 04-28-2015, 11:08 AM

Originally Posted by Jonah

yeh it's common turnaround for my ear too... I believe it was one of the first comping changes that I learnt to play in my teens that sounded 'jazzy' to my ear... without really thinking of its harmonic concept

But in Corcovado - though it looks the same - to me all the combination of factors gives it another hearing quality...

I mean in a kind of absolute reduced form I would agree with you.. but how it is realized in this certain piece I hear it differently..

But here it's not that clearly defined by the context... I think both hearings are quite 'legitimate'

I think this may be due to the tendency in more modern playing to play 'out of the chords' - in earlier eras it would have been more common to play diatonically over these chord progressions (perhaps instinctively avoiding notes that clashed with the chromatic notes in the chords - or perhaps not.)

Making the chords longer does tend to encourage this type of playing. I do find for my own playing if a chord lasts a bar or so at 120 (so 2 seconds or so), I do definitely want to express it in my line. This is true of Corcovado...

**vhollund** · 04-28-2015, 11:16 AM

It surprises me all the conclusions you come to with so limited info
A13b9 is just the V/V
In G major

**christianm77** · 04-28-2015, 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by vhollund

It surprises me all the conclusions you come to with so limited info
A13b9 is just the V/V
In G major

TBH I think this one may have gone a bit off piste

**vhollund** · 04-28-2015, 11:42 AM

Ok,

but who answered the question in a simple manner before that was allowed to happen ?

**Jonah** · 04-28-2015, 12:03 PM

It surprises me all the conclusions you come to with so limited info
A13b9 is just the V/V
In G major

sure and your're right - I thought about when I mentioned Misty in G (there it was dominant to D-7)...

Actually the simplest way to check the function is to reduce the chord to the triad (not to the seventh but to the triad)... the difficulty is that many jazz chords can be interpreted as a few different triads

**Jonah** · 04-28-2015, 02:28 PM

I think this may be due to the tendency in more modern playing to play 'out of the chords' - in earlier eras it would have been more common to play diatonically over these chord progressions (perhaps instinctively avoiding notes that clashed with the chromatic notes in the chords - or perhaps not.)

Making the chords longer does tend to encourage this type of playing. I do find for my own playing if a chord lasts a bar or so at 120 (so 2 seconds or so), I do definitely want to express it in my line. This is true of Corcovado...

It is also othe way to achieve characteristic mood of bossa - relaxed... very light even in passion.. with no direction... to tensions and releases...

**sgcim** · 04-28-2015, 06:34 PM

MB was okay in the 60s, when there were no other books available, but there are so many tons of better books around today.
No one would ever call that chord an A13b9, because that voicing would conflict with an A played by a bass player.

Call it a Bbdim.w/F#, call it a rootless voicing of an Eb7#9 chord; both would sound fine with a bass player playing a Bb or an Eb as the bass note, but calling it an A13b9 is just counter productive.

MB was a good blues/R&B player, but he was no jazz player. Just putting on sunglasses does not make you a jazz musician.LOL!

**vhollund** · 04-28-2015, 06:45 PM

Originally Posted by Jonah

sure and your're right - I thought about when I mentioned Misty in G (there it was dominant to D-7)...

Actually the simplest way to check the function is to reduce the chord to the triad (not to the seventh but to the triad)... the difficulty is that many jazz chords can be interpreted as a few different triads[/COLOR]

As you kindof point out
It is also impossible to determine function with out the harmonic context around the chord

**Reg** · 04-28-2015, 07:20 PM

Hey vhollund... yes the basic 1st option would be the obvious one, V of V ... I agree and the note choices could even be from subs... any number of subs games.. but here are the actual changes...

3 x 4 4 3 x Gma7 ....1 7 3 5
6 x 5 6 7 x A13b9....b9 b7 3 13
5 x 5 5 5 5 A-7 .....
4 6 x 5 8 8 D13b5b9...b5 b9 b7 3 13

I don't remember... if I posted... The changes vintagelove posted...

Gmaj7 A13b9 A-7 D7
Gmaj7 G13b9 A-7 D13b5b9

Anyway common in blusey changes... I to V of V (or II7) which can be sub of bVI then II V, and blue notes and getting cool

Next 4 changes... I to V of IV (or I7) and deceptively go to the II- chord a diatonic sub and also related II- of V, can become very blusey... but I didn't really believe MB was that hip... so when I saw the actual voicing... yada yada