Samba and Other Latin Guitar Rhythms

[Space Pickle]

Hi, after sucking it up on a samba tune the other night I have resolved to better learn how to strum. Can anyone recommend some resources to learn how to strum samba and other latin rhythms? Books/recordings/great players to check out would be great.

Specifically I'm most interested in right-hand pick strumming (i.e. rhythms to play that involve strumming the whole chord) rather than the thumb and fingers bassline/comping style of playing, but anything and everything would be helpful.

[DanielleOM]

On you tube there's an interesting Diana Krall video playing The Boy from Ipanema, with Anthony Wilson playing guitar. I plan to spend some time looking at that one myself.

Danielle

[docbop]

[bako]

For strumming solid chords in samba, I would listen to cavaquinho players who play that way with greater frequency than guitar players typically do.

[Guitarzen]

First of all, I've never heard a genuine Brazilian guitar player strum, it's always fingerstyle / plucking. I'm not saying there are none, I've just never heard one. It's worth noting the guys in the video are Hungarian. Deal with it, if you want a true Brazilian sound, play like a Brazilian.

Second, get Nelson Faria's "The Brazilian Guitar Book". Third listen to actual Brazilian guitar players. But from what I remember all of the examples in Nelson's book are transcribed directly from the best Brazilian players. And yes all Nelson's examples are fingerstyle, IIRC.

[EddieLastra]

Emily Remler briefly touched on Latin strumming in one of her old intructional videos:

[mhch]

On you tube there's an interesting Diana Krall video playing The Boy from Ipanema, with Anthony Wilson playing guitar. I plan to spend some time looking at that one myself.

Danielle

More of a bossa nova than a samba, which he's picking with his right hand fingers ..

The key reason behind playing with the right hand fingers is to obtain several sound variation and accenting possibilities, which are essential to playing this style nicely, for instance by rapidly muting or not the just plucked strings with you right hand fingers

Using a pick I would rather play chords in a sparse way

[cosmic gumbo]

Plenty of latin style big band standards that have guitarist comping chordal rhythm patterns.

[JensL]

Plenty of latin style big band standards that have guitarist comping chordal rhythm patterns.

Those always struck me as being written by people who don't know anything about latin music? Something like Skrillex writing for the Count Basie big band?

If you want to learn samba check some brazilian playes if the american guys are any good that is what they did...

Jens

[destinytot]

If you don't want to play with fingers, Jim Hall shows how it's done with a pick:

[JensL]

Not to disrespect Jim Hall or Bill Evans in any way but to me there is little else than the title that is samba in that piece.
That does not make it bad music but maybe it does maybe exclude it as a good example of a style of playing? In that respect Emily Remler is a much better place to start if you do not want to start with the roots.

Anybody know which Norwegian Alto player I should check out for some great bebop?

Jens

[jasaco]

Anybody know which Norwegian Alto player I should check out for some great bebop?

No, but I do know which Danish bassist you should check out: Niels-Henning Ørsted Pedersen !

[destinytot]

[QUOTE=JensL;521030]Not to disrespect Jim Hall or Bill Evans in any way but to me there is little else than the title that is samba in that piece.
That does not make it bad music but maybe it does maybe exclude it as a good example of a style of playing? In that respect Emily Remler is a much better place to start if you do not want to start with the roots./QUOTE]

I'm not sure about that. Some may find Jim Hall's left-hand technique - pressing and releasing, coordinated with the right-hand strum - audible and accessible.

As has been said, authentic strumming (not plucking) is best exemplified by cavaquinho players.

However, one needn't mimic Pixinguinho et al in order to play authentic samba. (Actually, one the reasons I respect Jim Hall is that he, unlike many, is just that - authentic.)

But one needs to know - and love? - samba to play it. Without getting precious about it, this anthem sets forth all one needs to know:

[JensL]

I'm not sure about that. Some may find Jim Hall's left-hand technique - pressing and releasing, coordinated with the right-hand strum - audible and accessible.

As has been said, authentic strumming (not plucking) is best exemplified by cavaquinho players.

However, one needn't mimic Pixinguinho et al in order to play authentic samba. (Actually, one the reasons I respect Jim Hall is just that he, unlike many, is just that - authentic).

But one needs to know - and love? - samba. Without getting precious about it, this anthem sets forth all one needs to know about it:

I did not say it was anything about the quality of his technique, I was talking about his choice of technique and rhythm (and that of Bill Evans). His bossa or samba playing never struck as that authentic, but I am sure that could also be me.

And yes Joao Bosco would probably be a better place to start especially in terms of feel and how the groove is present in every instrument in the band, even if it is samba in a much later and more evolved form.

Jens

[destinytot]

I did not say it was anything about the quality of his technique, I was talking about his choice of technique and rhythm (and that of Bill Evans). His bossa or samba playing never struck as that authentic, but I am sure that could also be me.

And yes Joao Bosco would probably be a better place to start especially in terms of feel and how the groove is present in every instrument in the band, even if it is samba in a much later and more evolved form.

Jens

I'm sure it's just me, but what I find authentic about Jim Hall's choice of strumming technique and the resulting rhythm is precisely that it doesn't conform to an archetypal model or ideal.

I admire how he conveys a lilting rhythm without sounding forced or affected - and I think this is desirable for jazz in a way that 'sounding right' isn't (that way lies pageantry).

[JensL]

I'm sure it's just me, but what I find authentic about Jim Hall's choice of strumming technique and the resulting rhythm is precisely that it doesn't conform to an archetypal model or ideal.

I admire how he conveys a lilting rhythm without sounding forced or affected - and I think this is desirable for jazz in a way that 'sounding right' isn't (that way lies pageantry).

Ok. So it is a great example of a samba because: 1. he is not playing a samba and 2. It sounds nice and not forced.

As you might predict my next question is: how is it not Country and Western or Death Metal by the same argument?

Jens

[destinytot]

Ok. So it is a great example of a samba

That's a far cry from what I'm saying.

The irony of your comments isn't lost on me, but here's my polite response.

I'm sorry, but I don't think it at all absurd to suggest Jim Hall's technique as a model for playing syncopated samba rhythm with a pick.

The rhythm Jim Hall plays on Jazz Samba behind Bill Evans (from around the 1min mark) has a 'two' feel and pulse in keeping with the tune's title - a rhythm strummed in a manner redolent of cavaquinho playing - and without relying on rhythmic support from another instrument.

I've had the good fortune to watch from a front-row table several nights in a row while Barney Kessel played chord-melody in that rhythm as a solo-guitar introduction to an up-beat latin tune. Captivating and compelling - but not the only way, of course.

Regarding the last question, and without condescension, I'll say only that any style involving a strumming technique for achieving syncopation has something valuable to offer anyone seeking a way into this sound.

In fact, I'd suggest the OP take a look at Nile Rodgers's strumming technique for some insight into what his fretting hand does.

[Space Pickle]

Hey, thanks for the replies. I realize that a real Samba involves alternating high and low tones which is best achieved by fingerpicking different string groups...perhaps a better question might have been what to play on a big band samba chart...the guitar needs to play something rhythmic and interesting but not take up too much space.

That Emily Remler video looks promising, thanks.

[edh]

Which Emily Remler video are you people reffering to?

[cosmic gumbo]

People that want to learn to play authentic latin music should study real latin music/musicians. Latin jazz is jazz, not Latin music.

[EddieLastra]

Lee Ritenour strumming samba rhythms on a big Gibson archtop.

Is that an L5 he's playing?

[mhch]

Lee Ritenour strumming samba rhythms.

Very rare to see such a very good samba strumming with a pick, which is very hard to perform and get it sound correctly (proper accents and syncopating around beat 2 in 2/2, light on bass, etc ..). I didn't quite like Jim Hall example in that respect, I'm sorry to say. Joao Bosco video above is really good as a samba example.

Most of the time, strumming is achieved using your thumb for a lighter sound (destinydot example above or

),

or picking with fingers (like most south american players).

Better put all the above in the context of my own experience which is more Brazilian music than Latin Jazz (even if I do play some from time to time).

[patskywriter]

Here's a fun video by Filó Machado—just voice and guitar. You can get a sense of the joy, freedom, and rhythms of (not necessarily traditional) samba. Warning: He's funkier than most, LOL. Enjoy:

[JensL]

At least there are some more brazilian examples coming up in the thread.

Think about this (even if it is a off topic):

Brazilian music is a complete style of music which is almost only using guitar as a harmony instrument. It is an important and very big part of guitar music history (influencing from Pat Metheny to Paul Simon). If you play guitar you should check it out just like you should know Muddy Waters, Eary Clapton, Hendrix and Van Halen. Not to perfectly play it, just so you recognize it in how it fits in the development of your instruments history.

Probably the most important aspect of the music is feel and articulation of the rhythm and you are going to learn that a lot easier by starting with the technique they used and listen to the music they played, not the ones copying it (which they do badly in my opinion, but ok that is my opinion)

Don't start off copying Pat Martino without a pick, our Van Halen without tapping, Gambale but with no sweeping? Why make life difficult for yourself?

Jens

[EddieLastra]

How about another nice samba featuring Japanese saxophonist Sadao Watanabe and Brazilian guitarist Toquinho.

I like his right hand technique the way he uses index finger to strum out the subtle syncopated accents in between the thumb and finger chord plucking patterns, sort of a combined flamenco strumming with Brazilian plucking technique, his solo lines are also very rhythmically driven