Samba and Other Latin Guitar Rhythms

[destinytot]

Imitation is obviously not an end in itself, and copying ought to be done with meticulous care and attention to detail.

On a practical level, metre (or meter) matters less than groove. When it is done badly, copying reflects the attitude or mindset of the player rather than the music.

Because culture matters. There is an ethical dimension to the choices involved in copying - and that's OK, because people with good intentions will handle it responsibly and in the service of Beauty.

I posted them on another thread, but I feel these words from Antonio Carlos ('Tom') Brasileiro de Almeida Jobim are worth quoting in full: 'The writer Mario de Andrade would say, "My son, if you're no great talent, you should make Brazilian music. If you're Brazilian, make Brazilian music. If you're average, make Brazilian music. If you're a genius, you've got even more reason to make Brazilian music, because the world is full of musicians. You don't have to go Germany or the States to be just one more musician. It's full of musicians over there, great musicians. So you do better, be more useful to the planet, make Samba. Or make Brazilian music and let it grow." I'm not for the stagnant kind of Samba, something you can't play with. No, I think you can reinvent everything.' From:

I'm reminded of why I love samba. It is a victory over the tyranny of distinctions and definitions imposed from without.

Above all, samba represents a vindication of Unity. I'm convinced that this appeals to many jazz musicians on a visceral level.

For me, samba is the answer to the koan 'What is the sound of one hand clapping?' Even my hero João Gilberto - Zen master and innovator - is a walking conflation of eclectic influences and styles.

I have no regrets about copying João Gilberto. Saraiva, mestre!

[destinytot]

perhaps a better question might have been what to play on a big band samba chart...the guitar needs to play something rhythmic and interesting but not take up too much space.

Then a few well-timed downstrokes will do - look up ​partido alto.

[richb2]

I hope not to hijack this thread. But I have a questions for you guys. I am pretty at ease playing bossa. When backing a singer or a sax I have no problems. What happens when there is a bass player? Do you continually play the alternating bass? I actually have lots of trouble sounding like bossa when I don;'t have the thumb to keep my beat constant. According to one of my teachers, the difference between polka and bossa is the bossa player often plays ahead of the beat. That is what makes it sound like bossa. But, not all the time.

[destinytot]

Lee Ritenour strumming samba rhythms on a big Gibson archtop.

Love it - and love Phil Perry (vocals), too.

[destinytot]

What happens when there is a bass player? Do you continually play the alternating bass? I actually have lots of trouble sounding like bossa when I don;'t have the thumb to keep my beat constant.

My thumb keeps playing - but it strikes a muted string, so the effect isn't heard as much as it is felt. It's very subtle, and it allows the guitar to lock in with the bass. Part of the beauty of this rhythmic style is that it lends itself well to adaptation.

This kind of sensitive blending brings a wonderful synergy to the experience of playing (something I'm trying to capture). I find the image of dolphins dancing a useful illustration.

[patskywriter]

I hope not to hijack this thread. But I have a questions for you guys. I am pretty at ease playing bossa. When backing a singer or a sax I have no problems. What happens when there is a bass player? Do you continually play the alternating bass? …

If you get confused trying to eliminate the thumb when playing with a bassist, simply de-emphasize the thumb (to the point where it's barely heard). If you're able to break/suspend the habit of playing the alternating bass thing, take advantage of the opportunity to do more rhythmic fills. Take a look at the batucada here and pay attention to the tamborims (the cute little handheld drums played with sticks). Borrow some ideas from what they're doing. To me, the biggest mistake non-Brazilian guitarists make is being too rigid and slavishly sticking to one pattern. Samba and bossa nova are actually very fluid, very forgiving, and very funky. I know it's weird for me to respond to a question about bossa nova with a samba video, but I hope you understand that I want you to get more familiar with the wide range of rhythms so you have more to choose from and play with.

[destinytot]

Anybody know which Norwegian Alto player I should check out for some great bebop?

How medieval. I don't approve - adieu.

[destinytot]

[destinytot]

It's great to hear from someone studying with Romero Lumamba. I travelled from London to Paris especially to see him live several years ago.

I first heard him on this:

I have had numerous jazz musicians tell me that I am "rushing them" when playing bossa. I tell them not to listen to my beat; They must keep their own beat going in their own head.

Been there - ain't going back!

[richb2]

>>It's great to hear from someone studying with Romero Lumamba. I travelled from London to Paris especially to see him live several years ago.

I'd say "studying with him" is an exaggeration. He is on the road so much that whenever he gets home for a few days I set up a lesson with him. He lives close by. We have an unusual teacher student relationship: he is my guitar consultant. He mostly tells me where I am deficient and I go off to work on that myself. Sometimes he shows me how to solve the puzzle but it is really up to me to exploit what he has told me. I'd say over the last year or two I have had 5 or 6 lessons with him. And it has totally changed my playing. At least now I am confident that I am doing it right.

[richb2]

BTW, this is a funny story considering the "argument" I was having with Patrick2 earlier in the week about the inappropriateness of posting exact covers of well known tunes on a site like this. I learned of Luciana Souza because I was looking for recorded versions of Steely Dan covers, a number of years ago. That is how I found out about Luciana Souza. I did my research on the internet, and was only looking for CD;'s that my library system had available for lending. I also found an album by Phil Upchurch in the same way (around the same time a number of years ago) that is also dear to me. How ironic, no?

[Campos]

Ok, I'll try to put some words with my bad english!
As a Brazilian, I am kind of forced to collaborate to this thread.
I have a feeling that playing samba strumming the guitar it's always something not so natural, but works. As someone said, it's logical to try, to see what the big guys have done and, as a start point, try to do the same.
But there's a guy from the 60's named Jorge Ben(jor), a big star artist, very famous here, but maybe not so well known like João Gilberto or Baden Powell.
As he said in an interview he developed a samba right hand strumming technique because he can't play like his idol, João Gilberto!
He developed a style that is not exactly samba ... it's something else, but it deserves a closer look:

... my $0.02

[Phil in London]

How about another nice samba featuring Japanese saxophonist Sadao Watanabe and Brazilian guitarist Toquinho.

I like his right hand technique the way he uses index finger to strum out the subtle syncopated accents in between the thumb and finger chord plucking patterns, sort of a combined flamenco strumming with Brazilian plucking technique, his solo lines are also very rhythmically driven

Cant help it, but the groove of this recording compares to what a Yamaha sound-machine could emit, and the guitar player's solo is not much more inspired either. I agree with what was said above, one needs to listen to the local Brazilian guys (etc) to get the right vibe...

[docbop]

Badi Assad is one of my favorites. Got to see her at a coffee house once with just Badi and a percussionist and great music. I believe she is another whose whole family is Brazilian musicians so her roots run deep.

[richb2]

Great example of the timing of bossa. I was told by a Brazilian friend that this song is a word game.

[destinytot]

Cant help it, but the groove of this recording compares to what a Yamaha sound-machine could emit, and the guitar player's solo is not much more inspired either. I agree with what was said above, one needs to listen to the local Brazilian guys (etc) to get the right vibe...

I agree with all of the above, but surely this particular guitarist 'deserves a pass', as they say - a sympathetic hearing?

[Phil in London]

I agree with all of the above, but surely this particular guitarist 'deserves a pass', as they say - a sympathetic hearing?

Yes, sure, I did not want to be high and mighty etc. It's just that this strange way of losing beats and not losing them, which makes bossa and samba so mysteriously attractive, runs rather diametral to what makes Japan Japan...

[destinytot]

Yes, sure, I did not want to be high and mighty etc. It's just that this strange way of losing beats and not losing them, which makes bossa and samba so mysteriously attractive, runs rather diametral to what makes Japan Japan...

Performances on that scale generally seem a bit sinister to me - I don't blame the artists, but the whole business is a minefield.


I also find much to admire about the project behind this clip, my favourite of several posted in the Benson Picking thread last summer. To me , the whole band sounds great - and as a Benson fan, it's a rare delight to hear/see someone do the Benson thing as tastefully as Peter Farrell - but I particularly enjoyed Adam Rogers's solo:

[Jazzism]

Badi Assad is one of my favorites. Got to see her at a coffee house once with just Badi and a percussionist and great music. I believe she is another whose whole family is Brazilian musicians so her roots run deep.

Yes, Sergio and Odair Assad are also incredible!

[destinytot]

I think it's fair to say that being Brazilian isn't what makes it authentic - or any good for that matter.

I think it's a disservice to these artists to attribute the quality of their music to membership of a socio-cultural group. It's a cliché, but it's a helpful one: a note doesn't care who plays it.

Having said that, they are a credit to their nations, and a beacon of hope for the world.

[Reg]

I'll record something from some of my gigs... a few of the bands I work with cover brazilian jazz samba more in up tempo direction of Eliane Elias or Tanya... not really in the singing direction... but very danceable... the bridge is up a 1/2 step. Generally the changes are more interesting.

[Phil in London]

I tend to agree with Rosine (raisin ... yes, of course its not the passport that counts... but does seem to me that Bossa and particularly Samba have been bastardised when going global... its rather difficult to actually understand this music for the outsider (and I dont claim I have understood it), particularly when we talk about the 'real stuff', not the music one can hear in a hotel elevator in Tokyo... and who would doubt that there is still a concentration of authentic vibe and soul of this music where it comes from. Doesnt mean that every Brazilian is a musical genius, nor does it mean that it is impossible for a Japanese to really 'get it'... but its like in golf, when you start with a handicap. And from that end, a note does care who plays it.

[destinytot]

I'll record something from some of my gigs... a few of the bands I work with cover brazilian jazz samba more in up tempo direction of Eliane Elias or Tanya... not really in the singing direction... but very danceable... the bridge is up a 1/2 step. Generally the changes are more interesting.

It's Saturday night, and I'm in the office at a little restaurant in Valencia, where I've been playing solo once a week for about six years. I just want to say that posts like this remind me how inspiring it is to participate in this forum.

[richb2]

I love this women. I don't have single album by her but what a fabulous piano player! Thanks for the post.

[Reg]

I love this women. I don't have single album by her but what a fabulous piano player! Thanks for the post.

Yea... your not alone.