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How do Jazz Bass players handle it when the Comping instrument subs altered chords for non-altered chords. Is there some agreement made when the players are unfamiliar with one another? Does the Bass player maybe play it safe and just stay with chord tones? Or, do they go with the feel of each other and play altered notes at will?
The way real Jazz players interact has been a very intriguing subject for me, lately.Last edited by AlsoRan; 04-12-2015 at 05:07 PM. Reason: Clarity
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04-12-2015 02:27 PM
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That's what roots are for.... <grin>
I would say for bass is if the triad has been altered then need to follow it.
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Good question, I have been wondering this myself. If substituting chords on the fly, how the bass handle it?
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Art Tatum was a fantastic pianist who would often transpose or re harmonize songs on the fly. At jam sessions bass players would try to follow him but he was always harmonically ahead of anyone else. It was almost like a trial by fire to see if you could make it through a whole song. Sort of like riding one of those mechanical Bulls.
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I am going to pull out and dust off my old Jazz Bass and Walking Bassline book/CD material and see what the "book" answer is. I will get back with you good folks tomorrow, but after reading setemupJoe's post, I am starting to believe that in some gigs it might get worked out beforehand while with the really good Jazz cats, musicians are expected to adapt, react, and enjoy the ride - which may be full of hairpin turns and unseen obstacles.
Almost like a musical video game...
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I don't see why this would be si difficult...where are you subbing these altered chords? V's. Right?
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This is true.
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
So are you saying that the bass player could outline for example a C7 chord and while the guitarist subs a C7#5b9 and the dissonance would be pretty much acceptable considering it is the V chord?
I guess the question is really that subjective question of avoid notes (or handle with care notes as some have called them). Does a bassist really need to be concerned at all about clashing as long as he is on the V chord portion of the harmony?
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Well, what I'm saying is any player worth a hoot knows what alterations work in a tune. They're not surprises.
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Assuming the bass often plays the root on the first beat of the bar, it must happen sometimes that the bassist hits the 5th on (say) the second beat of the dominant chord, just as the pianist (say) decides to only play a chord on the second beat, and chooses an altered 5th harmony. I don't see how the bassist could anticipate that.
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Anticipate, no...
But where are we throwing these altered 5th "surprises" in? A tunes a tune...even a vanilla chart suggests things...if i see Em7b5--A7--Dminor, i know what's happening, and what goes on with that A7...
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I remember as as a young beginner Jazz guitarist, after I learned some tritone subs, I started throwing these subs in everywhere, even if they clashed with the melody, bassist and drove the improvising soloist nuts. Unfortunately, I learned the hard way.....
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Pardon me if this sounds unduly tart, but it's pretty short: "We listen and try to play something which makes music and sense in that particular moment and context." Originally Posted by AlsoRan
That's what jazz is about. It's not about playing it safe. It's not about winning the argument by playing The Proper Stuff From The Sheet. It's not about winning the argument by playing The Cool Stuff Miles Played in 1954. It's not about pasting in some intricate noise you were practicing. It's not about the band in your head. It's about the music you are actually making with the people you are actually playing with, at that moment, in that spot.
Yeah, me too, even after a long time. Originally Posted by AlsoRan
Don't we all! Originally Posted by GuyBoden
I remember as as a young beginner Jazz guitarist, after I learned some tritone subs, I started throwing these subs in everywhere, even if they clashed with the melody, bassist and drove the improvising soloist nuts. Unfortunately, I learned the hard way.....
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I've played bass most of my life... basically only at gigs. We have ears, there isn't much that isn't very common jazz practice. Unless your playing some very complicated subs, chord patterns etc... it's never a problem. Just for the general record, bass players don't just play roots and chord tones... part of our job it to help imply changes, harmonic rhythm of tunes... we also add subs and common chord patterns to help imply harmony and make tunes lock both rhythmically and harmonically. It's the same... on the beat or tunes rhythmic accent pattern... you play the changes and on the weak side or off the beat and tunes harmonic rhythm... you help create, improvise to help create whatever type of motion the tune implies which also helps lock and create whatever type of groove the tune implies. Grooves are not only funk etc...
I can't tell you how many time a vocalist or horn section says... man you guys were on tonight... like it was by chance.
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For the sake of clarity, could someone illustrate an example of substitutions in the chord progression to a well known standard so we could confront the two chord progressions? No deep explanation - just the comparable two progressions, eg, Dmaj7 - Am7 - D7b5 - Gmaj7 ..... . I would just like to see how you use the substitutions in the context of a known standard.
Jay
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Bar 3 and 4 of "I Can't get Started." Originally the chords were something like
|E7/Ami7/|D7/G7/|.
The real book made this substitution more popular.
|Bmi7 E7 Bbmi7 Eb7 |Ami7 D7 Abmi7 Db7 |
Another example is "Almost Like Being In Love." The original changes in the A section are (in Bb):
|Ebma7 /// |F7 /// |Bbma7 /// |Dbº7 /// |Cmi7 /// |F7 /// |Bb6 /// |Bb7 /// |
A popular substitution in the first three bars is:
|Emi7(b5) /// |Eb9(#11) /// |Dmi7 /// |Dbº7 /// |Cmi7 /// |F7 /// |Bb6 /// |Bb7 /// |
Many books use these chords below which are a poor use of substitution and turn an otherwise interesting progression into a series of cookie cutter II-V-I's.
|Cmi7 /// |F7 /// |Bbma7 /// |G7 /// |Cmi7 /// |F7 /// |Bb6 /// |G7 /// |
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Agreed, that should be understood. But the OP asked is it ok for the bass to outline a 'straight' C7 chord while the guitar plays C7#5b9. I was saying this is bound to happen sometimes, so it's probably ok. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
In fact here's an example. At 1.22 Percy Heath is playing a G7 chord with unaltered 5th while George Benson is playing a G7 altered. But it sounds ok.
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If you are responding in the moment, aren't you behind? You can only respond to what has already happened. Seems the OP is asking how to anticipate. Originally Posted by Sam Sherry
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With a 2-5-1 being harmonically diatonic, I'm almost kinda expecting the bassist to use the math of the b5 tritone playing the Dom7, because it ain't really jazz if you don't...
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So like I said before... generally the basic changes are implied... played on the downbeat or strong attack of an accent pattern, the accent pattern is the rhythm and harmonic groove, There is lots of room to add whatever you want. When you alter a change on the weak side ... or on the less important rhythmic attacks of the tune, your creating a secondary layer of harmonic motion. Generally most think of basic Function as what makes chord progressions move... tonic to subdominant to dominant back to tonic ... there are a few standard sets of guidelines from which most tunes fall into. So when you alter or add changes to existing tunes.... your either arranging... or more commonly just adding another layer of function. If you think of Function as the motor that makes chords move, your adding another motor.
There is also the use of subs and chord patterns within the space between the strong beats of the groove or harmonic rhythm of tunes. This is usually also organized, so they won't sound like random mistakes, your creating another layer of harmonic motion. This can function on it's own, but generally also functions within the basic changes. Obviously this is not for beginners. You need to understand basic functional Harmony and Jazz functional Harmonies, and understand how to organize the application, it's generally not just what you feel or think sounds good. Although with practice... will work sometimes.
As far as playing a Altered Dom. chord over a implied straight Dominant chord... G7b13#9 over G7.... you generally need to have an approach... Blue notes work well... b13 b5 or #11 and #9... b9 usually sucks. If the bassist is just plugin through chord tones... 1, 3, 5 and b7, the only note that is usually a problem id the natural 5th... Our ears are fairly use to V7's from Harmonic minor with the added #9... so that would set up b9 and natural 5th also.
The main point during performance... is where on or off the beat you play... that actual rhythmic location.
As setemupjoe pointed out there are standard variations of changes that are common practice, and once you play for a while... you begin to see that most chord patterns, subs etc... are just from standard tunes... they've been used before and have become common practice... more experienced players recognize where your going from subtle hints or cues.
So most can play a basic blues right... you can add the IV on bar 2, maybe a I VI II V turnaround... then maybe some II V approaches next thing your playing Blues for Alice... at least the 1st four bars to get to the IV chord. It's basically the same thing... once you know the tunes.... you can play subs and alternate changes because their from tunes. There are only so many sets of changes...eventually you know them. Even if you just play them from memory, eventually you'll get them.
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How enlightening this was!
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I hope you're joking, but just in case: No, working in the moment does not leave you behind. Not in jazz, conversation, sports, driving, love . . . the moment gets bigger and we move with it as we are meant to. Originally Posted by Jonzo
We now return you to, "Seven drop-2 inversions of the -7b5 chord."
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Yes and no. "Thinking two moves ahead" is a common sports expression.
Seems in jazz you are simultaneously responding to the past, anticipating the future, and playing in the present.
Like life. No?Last edited by Jonzo; 04-14-2015 at 06:39 PM.
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Honestly I think the OP is thinking too hard. The number of ears that will hear a bass play a natural fifth on beat three of a measure going by at 150 bpm when the guitar player is playing a sharp fifth are so few as to be negligible. Also that's an academic consideration. In practice the strength of the melodic movement in the bassline and the rhythmic strength and voice leading in the comping will be enough to overshadow a minor clash over one beat. Playing a bad tension at a slower tempo? More of a problem. Playing a bad tension over a melody? Also worse.
the other thing is that when you're talking about side slipping and tritone subs and approach chords and things like that then the rub against the rest of the band is what you want! Those are about creating tension. There's common practice like Beaumont mentioned and those things are understood easily with minimal knowledge of harmony. Beyond that it's about taste and about what's happening in the moment
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Just another 2 cents to add, since nobody seemed to mention it: the more you play with the same people, the more familiar you become with how they treat changes, for each individual tune or in general. That's why it's good to form a group with regular people and rehearse, because you learn to adapt and lock into each others playing style.
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