-
Reading George Benson´s biography I got this:
"first chord is a C with a flat five over a D9"
What does it mean? What does "over a D9" mean?
Tks
-
04-10-2015 12:02 PM
-
Please, please post the next page! Sounds like an interesting story. It's kind of awkwardly explained, but my guess is the the notes "c" and "gb" constitute the 3rd and 7th of a D7 (or D9 for that matter) chord. These are important chord tones and it is a way to play the chord with as few notes as possible. The bass covers the root and maybe there's even a piano player laying more harmony down.
-
...continuing...
-
Okay he's talking to a piano player so they are talking polychords something piano player use a lot. D9 is being played in the left hand and Cb5 in the right. On paper they are writing with one chord on top a horizontal line then the other chord below, so the slang for X on top of Y, or X over a Y.
Originally Posted by marinsmarcos
-
Hey man, yeah as docbop just pointed out, this is a polychord...one chord on top of another. I've been studying with a pianist/vibraphonist recently who's got me digging into this world like crazy right now. Generally on guitar when we think of C/D...we're just going to play a C chord and put the D in the bass. But on piano, you can actually play a chord in the left hand and a different chord in the right hand.
That said, after studying and playing with my teacher, I'm starting to think that's it's really not a good idea to assume that they are complicated creatures, that we should only let the piano players think this way, and that we should be leaving out all these notes. It's a little deceptive to think of it as two different chords. Yes it's true, but every combination of different chords gives a very unique and characteristic sound. I've talked about this a bit on this forum, but pretty much every great chord can be built by adding some type of triad on top of some other chord. For example, a C13b9 is simply a C7 chord with an A Major triad on top of it. Most of us see 13b9 and immediately generalize it into just some half-whole diminished scale sound...but like Freddie points out to George here, it's not the 'right' 13b9 chord then. I've been working really hard on charting out all the different chord types, what triads make them up, and how to harmonically and melodically really get inside the quality of the chord. Just in the last couple of months it has done so much to open my ears up, to grow my harmonic and chordal vocabulary in ways I wasn't sure were possible and with chords I rarely, if ever, see talked about or written in books, and has be really learning how to pinpoint the "better notes" - as Miles called them - when I'm soloing. I can't recommend enough to think this way. There's something about the beauty and harmonious strength of a triad (especially a major triad) that just makes EVERYTHING shimmer in a way that you can't get without them. Finding ways to use them in chords and single note lines brings everything to life in my ears. I can completely relate to what George was saying in this story about hearing the chord and it being so pretty it made his heart sing. Man...that's the power of the hidden triad. Whether we're playing the chord itself or improvising or composing a melody on top of the chord...knowing the right triad to use will make it sound so pretty it'll make your heart sing! I love this stuff!
-
Really quickly, just to follow up with an actual example. Most guitar players, if you asked them to play an D9 would come back probably with this voicing
D9
x5455x
Your classic James Brown funk chord. Sounds fine...has all the right notes...we're good. It's missing the 5th (A), but that note is expendable. And if we analyze, it actually does have the C triad with the b5 in it. If we just learn the stock guitar shapes, we might miss that. But it's the D root note on the 5 string, and the other 3 notes make up a C triad with a b5. Thinking this way opens up some options. What if we jump the b5 of the C triad up an octave. Then we get this shape
xx0552
Much different sound. Same notes, but now there a nice gap between the two lower notes which opens up the feel of the chord, and there's a major 2nd interval between the highest to notes which makes it a little crunchier and more shimmering. And we can then invert the triad moving up the fretboard and keeping the open D string under it.
xx0978
xx0.11.13.12
We can then improvise using this triad rather than just jumping into mixolydian as it will tie our single note lines into the shimmering quality of the chord. If we want a slightly bigger sound, we can add a 4th note to create more color and movement. The triad already has the 3rd and 7th of the D chord within it, so maybe we go up to the 5th of D...the A note. Which means now we have a Cmajor triad with a b5 + A.
C E Gb A
This not only ties in your lines with the harmony, but it also gets rid of the D root note...which has its place in single note soloing, but in general is not going to create anywhere near as much color and emotion as any other note. Obviously, you would want to ONLY solo with these 4 notes. But they are like the anchor notes...the sweet spot notes. You through in some blues, some chromaticism, some mixolydian (if you really want), and whatever else you like. But it's worth really exploring the implications of the way the piano players think about this stuff...and that means to take some time and really listen for yourself just how good these 4 notes sound against a nicely voiced D9 chord.
And then the next step is to try taking the 4 notes (with the A) and find the inversions of THAT. I like to take out the 3rd note for a few different reasons. Check these out...
xxx212
xxx555
xxx978
xxx11.10.12
xxx14.13.14
Record yourself vamping on D9 with a looper and mess around with those 3 note voicing. They sound killin'! Right?! Because we got them from the upper structure triad that the piano player was trying to explain to George defines the chord. Man...I love this stuff. I could talk about this all night. Hahaha...sorry to clog up this thread. You just asked the question to my musical heart! hahaha
Anyways...hope some of my rambling helps.
-
Originally Posted by docbop
Tks. It really clears all for me!!!
Again, thank you very much...
-
Originally Posted by jordanklemons
Oh, Whatta great free class I´ve got. Thanks Jordan for spend your time. I will try all this options and post my impressions.
Again, Tks!!!
-
Hahah...no worries man. Like I said I love this stuff and pretty much think about it and work on it all day. Always nice to share some of the ideas with others. Please do feel free to let me know what you think about it if you end up trying it out. The three triad notes themselves are a little empty...because there's only 3. But by the time we add that 4th note, we're almost up to having a pentatonic scale. The difference being that we're not just using whatever stock shape we already know and apply to every chord. We're actually finding and developing a unique 'pentatonic'ish (quadratonic????) scale that's meant EXACTLY for the chord at hand. Much more refined and specific sound with the chord.
But try it for yourself. And please do let me know what you think. I'd love to hear your feedback.
-
Originally Posted by jordanklemons
Tks.
Tomorrow I´ll have some extra time (Saturday) to pratice. But I´ve just tried the triads right now and it is really an open-mind exercise...
I´ll let you know my thoughts later.
Regards
-
Hey Reg, did you comment? I got an email you did, but I don't see anything here on the thread. Always enjoy having your comments as part of the conversation.
-
So when I see a poly chord...(different from slash chord, but mixed up all the time etc...) such as C over D... it's generally just a piano voicing, the notes are there, right,
C E G and D F# A which is... With "C" as root or reference,
C D E F# G A
1 9 3 #11 5 13 could be Lydian, Cmaj13#11 or Lydian b7, C13#11, there's no 7th, B or Bb so I would need to be aware of the context, the tune etc... If I'm performing or just playing through, I would already have made a quick analysis which would have given me all the harmonic and tonal or modal details ... which would tell me whether the 7th is natural or flat. Doesn't mean I would need to play the 7th or b7th. But generally when playing jazz you don't just play One chord or keep repeating the same voicing, chord or chord pattern. Your not reading notated out music... your improvising, even when comping, and that improvisation is based on a harmonic reference, in the example of C over D and generally with bebop the reference would be a Dominant chord constructed from melodic minor, Lydian b7... D7#11, Very common practice. Still could be Cmaj lydian, you would need to make a choice and go from there.
So C with a b5 or #11 over a D9 is also a voicing, with reference to Cherokee, I assuming that it's just the 11th bar chord of the A section... so the root or reference would be "C" so it's a V of V or II7 and the b5 is really a #11 so C7#11 from Melodic Minor. I'm only using scale reference because that's where the chord is generally constructed from. There are other methods of deriving the chord... but with Bebop it's usually Melodic minor and blue notes.
When I see C13b9... I generally reference Harmonic Maj. the V chord. my second choice would be the Dim. reference, but that would also imply a #9... which I dig, opens Blue note doors for me... but the chord as spelled doesn't imply a #9. Again I would already know if I was actually playing because of quick analysis done before I play, or even as i play.
I dig Jordans Triad approach... it's great approach for developing different voicings and can also be used as organizational approach for guidelines of harmonic movement or chord progressions... or even in a modal approach, I guess you could even use in an added note or in this case added triad organizational guidelines... but the use generally needs a reference when playing... which could be as simple as pedal and keep it simple. Or you could as most do... just play and use what you like.
Jordan nice info I dig your posts... small note about your comment about what most guitar players use for D9.... generally
most guitarist are from pop, rock or classical backgrounds... which would backup your comment... jazz guitarist generally don't use that harmonic approach...and just as the rock, pop or classical schools...can't play funk...even if they wanted too, which personally is to bad, most jazz guitarist could use better groove feel.
The other somewhat obvious point... when your comping or soloing... how often do you sit on one change.
I'll check out your Up Jumped Spring, great tune, I'm sure it's cool. Thanks
-
Hey Jordan... yea... deleted start, I started BSing about different change... But posted above about some basic info.
-
Yeah man...some heavy info in your post Reg! I spent the last 20+ years clawing and scratching to get my mind and fingers and ears wrapped around the type of stuff you're saying. And my "new way" of thinking...I'm not convinced yet that anyone should skip the textbook approach first. The stuff you're talking about. I feel like it's important to know the big picture theory stuff before what I'm saying will be helpful. Though with that said, the guy I'm studying with has been at this game waaaaay longer than me, and he actually feels that starting new jazz students out on 7 (and sometimes 8) note scales is too much for them...that the approach to learning jazz chords and improvisation should be starting from a simpler foundation which can build into the larger picture. And on a level, I sort of get what he means. I haven't yet made up my mind yet on which way I feel. Which as a teacher is a bit of an issue. Which direction do I go with a new student who wants to be able to play this stuff? I haven't decided that yet. That said...you already know me well enough to know that I could talk about this stuff all day. I love it! Plus I'm sick and have basically been laying in bed all weekend with nothing to do. So I apologize in advance if I end up writing way too much.
The harmonic major will definitely sound great over a 13b9. I would never deny that or argue against it. But let's run with what you were saying, the C13b9 using harmonic major. That gives us
C-Db-E-F-G-A-Bb
vs a trimmed down approach using the upper structure triad (A maj + 1 note...we could add more notes once these 1st 4 are really internalized, but I think it's worth starting with the basic 4)
A-Bb-C#(Db)-E
If you take away the 4 "sweet spot" notes, all that's left is
C-F-G
The C note is the root note of the chord and is going to create very little emotion, color, or movement. The F note is the sus4, and while that can be cool to use, really needs to be understood as a tension note suspending us above the 3rd and given its resolution. Otherwise, we're going to have some weird sounding movement in our lines and we're going to cause some intervallic clashes with the other instruments. And waaaaaay more importantly, it gives away the harmonic resolution that is more than likely about to occur. By playing F over the C13b9, we're playing the root note of the next chord to come which sort of disconnects the melody from the harmony and ruins the surprise. Or at least, it slows down the harmonic momentum. It's like telling someone a joke, and accidentally slipping in the punch line before you finish the setup. The G is the 5th of the chord and expendable. And, again more importantly, it's also the 9th of the F chord to come which, depending on the voicing we're using, is very likely going to be a resolution note (depending on which upper structure triad we're using).
Instead, we have the 3 notes of a beautiful, shimmering, major triad. Plus a tension note. Yes, that's right. I just called the Bb note a tension note. What? That's the 7th in a dominant 7th chord! It's a guide tone! How can I not label it as a chord tone, and instead call it a tension note. Well because melodically, it creates tension. It's actually functioning as a b2 against the melodic root note...A. If we actually sit with this chord and try approaching it from the upper structure triad, you'll quickly realize that A actually feels like "do". Weird. This made my head hurt for weeks when I first started to notice this shift. But now I love it. That means I can phrase a line and land on "do"...the strongest resolution point we have...and I can do it without ever playing the drabbest note of all time...the harmonic root. But one of the cool things about this Reg, is that you can create that blues sound now from this point. You mentioned adding in the #9 sometimes if you want the blues sound. Well if you play with this stuff and start to realize that the A functions as a "do" in the C13b9 chord...than what's the bluesy minor 3rd up from that "do"? C. The harmonic root note. Crazy. So phrasing this way will take a super drab note (which most people assume is the melodic root note of the chord, but really isn't) and turn it into a bluesy "min3" sound...without ever bringing in any unnecessary notes and without every sacrificing the beautiful quality of what it is that turns a generic C7 chord into a C13b9 chord. I know it sounds crazy and ridiculous, but try it and listen to it. Loop a C13b9 chord and try improvising JUST with the A major triad for a minute to start to hear how they connect. Then add the Bb note in as your tension note. Really accentuate that note to bring out how colorful and tense it is, but always resolve it. Maybe try singing the solfeggi syllables along with it (Do-Ra-Mi-So) to really internalize the feeling. After a few minutes, once your ears are tuned in to that world, try throwing in the C note with the view that you're treating it as the #9 up from the root note, "A". Try to phrase something bluesy from THAT standpoint. If you can do that...try looping C13b9 resolving to FMaj9 (or whatever F major chord you want) and try playing the triad +1 over the dominant (with the bluesy stuff if you want) and resolve it down into the FMaj chord. If you try, let me know what you think. I'm curious. I've been teaching for a long time, but this approach is still new for me so I really haven't taught it to anyone else, and I'm genuinely curious to get thoughts and feedback from others. How it sounds, did I explain it clearly enough, etc.
It's definitely not wrong to use the scale. But it is a little deceptive to assume that because we know which scale to use, we know how to really utilize and manipulate a given chord type. I suppose that's the danger of giving beginners these big 7/8 note scales...they just see it as THE approach to a tonality and never question it or wonder what's going on INSIDE the scale. Why do certain notes sound spectacular while others sound not so great? It's like George in the story above playing D9, but not the 'right' D9. And when the piano player played the 'right' D9, it was so beautiful it shimmered and made his heart sing. Same notes, just approached in a different way.
You asked how long do I sit on a change. That's kind of the whole point right there Reg. That's the big question! Depending on the style, not very long, right? If I only have that C13b9 chord for 2 beats...do I really want to waste that valuable time playing notes that aren't going to really accentuate the beauty and function of that chord? Or will be giving away the resolution that's about to happen? Maybe. If that's what I want. But even then, I have to KNOW in advance which notes will function in which ways to make that decision. But more often than not, if I only have 2 or 4 beats, and that includes the silence between my phrases, I want to squeeze as much juice out as possible in that time...and for me that means finding the sweetest most perfect notes possible. Sweep away the clutter and go for the notes that are just killin' perfect...the notes that really sing with the harmony. And because the harmony is constantly moving and changing, those sweet spot notes are constantly moving and changing. If I added NOTHING else to the mix and ONLY played those 4 notes over any given chord, it would sound perfect...like I was writing a new melody over the changes rather than just playing scales. But from there, we could add a 5th note if we want more tension. We could add chromaticism or blues ideas. Hell...we could add back in the 7/8 note scales again. All of it's possible. Anything's possible. The idea isn't to throw the other notes out completely forever...or to just find new chord voicings. The idea is to sort of flip the process upside down. Most people take the scale, skip every other note to find the 7 chords within it...and then boom, you've got all the modes and sounds of that scale. Which is cool. It works. But then we're using the same exact set of 7 notes to approach 7 very different chords. Which I think we can both agree that leaves many players simply approximating the sound of each chord. This idea starts with the chord and says...ok chord...what's inside you. Oh...you're a C7 chord and you have an A major triad on top. Cool...let's start with the pretty upper structure notes which is melodically going to be what's happening anyways, and then let's build the scale and the voicings from that point.
-
I apologize for hyjacking thread... hopefully questions about poly and slash chords are answered.... moving on
Hey Jordan... yes I can heard your approach, but almost hearing as a relative relationship, and I actually hear A-7 1st.. I'm hearing the Amaj triad as a different secondary relationship. I hear as a modal interchange relationship, It's difficult for me to hear small note collections as tonal entities in themselves... without filling in the blanks.
I'll go through your post and comment best I can...
I definitely believe somewhat advanced harmonic or melodic relationships are for students who already have a solid foundation and understanding of music and a somewhat advanced level of musicianship... not for beginners, I don't believe jazz is for beginners... as students develop and advance with jazz they develop holes and hit walls. But who really cares... what are most students going to do with their musicianship anyway... generally just have fun and play when they can, so who cares. Now if we're thinking of down the line and what this approach will create, It's somewhat already happening right...
Yea Harmonic Maj... is really just an effect or modal interchange application for creating different note collections for standard chord progressions... there are a few composers, like Florian Ross... "By Any Means Neccessary". "Platypus and Getting there is Half the Fun...Billy Childs, "Dreams" and "Memory and Desire", Laurence Hobgood, "The Beauty of All Things", Ralph Towner, "I'll Remember August", Phil Markowitz,,, In the woods or Paladia, Even some of Bob Mintzers tunes pull from Harmonic Maj... Long story short... there is some common practice of usage.
So yea A maj triad works... add Bb then G and now you have A7b9 with a relative relationship or even a multi tonic relationship... open Min 3rd tonal applications or relationships... still just notes from F Harmonic Maj.
So maybe just as Melodic min basically becomes modal in nature... any chord constructed from any scale degree can be used once the door gets opened... so is Harmonic Maj. by way of the two tri-tones. A form of tri-tone substitution... Both C13b9 and A7b9 are from Har. Maj tritones
I need to head off to another gig... I'll BS some more tomorrow, who know where we'll end up...Last edited by Reg; 04-12-2015 at 09:45 PM.
-
@Jordan, good explanation.
-
Reg...thanks for indulging me. Have a great gig.
edh...thanks for the feedback. Much appreciated. Glad it made sense.
-
Hey Jordon... not indulging... I dig the subject always looking for new relationships. Unfortunally a lot of my playing is fairly straight ahead, many of my gigs are because I can read just about anything and I can cover straight ahead playing etc...
I was in recording studio last week and was reading through some cool tunes, a few of them pulled fro Harmonic maj.
The A section of one tune had me playing over...
/ Bb13b9 G13b9 / Ab13b9... F7b9 / Bb13b9 G13b9 / Ab13b9 B13b9 Ab13b9 F7b9 / then another version of the four bar phrase.
Changes were anticipated and in a latin feel ...mm 150 or so. It was tough... I basically just played off the I7 bVII relationship and used the other changes as approach chords.... The B section was basically a sequence of Eb-11 Eb-maj9.
Will be cool to hear, felt good. I never really get to rehearse before these sessions... would have helped.Last edited by Reg; 04-13-2015 at 09:53 AM.
-
Hey Reg, yeah I didn't mean indulging in a mean or negative way. More like the way someone indulges in chocolates or something they love. I was sick and basically laying in bed all weekend. Aside from texting friends and watching netflix, this thread kept me occupied...and indulging on something I love. So I meant it when I said thank you. And I do hope the gig went well!
So I know I have a tendency to get crazy longwinded, and I'm going to try and avoid that. But I'll probably fail. And while we've gotten a little off topic, I do want to touch just a couple points. Really they're on topic in my mind, just not to the specific detail that marins was originally asking about. But maybe they'll help you understand the bigger picture marins...or anyone else that's curious.
The polychord thing use to confuse me a lot. The first time I heard about it, I think from Rosenwinkel I couldn't figure out what to do with it. GMaj/A7...what??? I'd seen slash chords, but never where there was literally another chord on the bottom. The guy I'm currently studying with helped clear it up for me. It really isn't a complicated issue. All that's happening is that there's a chord, and then there's a melody on top of that chord. And sometimes, that melody is not playing just basic 1-3-5-7 chord tones. Sometimes the melody is outlining something else altogether. And when that happens, a very particular sound occurs. For example, when the melody is outlining an A Major sound, but the chord harmonizing it is a C7 chord. The natural byproduct of those two different tonalities sonically dancing together is what we call a C13b9. Or you could call it A/C7 if you want to think of it as a polychord. It really isn't magical or complicated. A good pianist (or guitarist) who knows this and is comping for a singer or horn player (or just for themselves) will put the A Major triad inside the voicing of the chord. This helps unite the harmony and the melody.
Generally, most of us younger jazz musicians learn all our standards from the real book. Who knows where and when those chord spellings were selected. They're often terribly wrong. We can pretty easily look at the bass note and at what the melody itself is doing, and it will tell us what the real chord should be...or at least give us a few options to chose from. Then we can go back and listen to the original and figure out which one was really being used. But this generalized way of learning tunes causes most of us to generalize the sounds of chords. Really...how many people do anything drastically different over a D-11,9 than they do over a D-9, or a D-13,11...or a D-7. But each one of these implies a different melodic structure. Reg, if your ear hears the Aminor triad over the C7, that's cool. That's totally a viable option. But it's creating a C13 chord...that's the tonality. Of course you can add the Db note if you want...but then it takes us back to what the piano player was saying to George in the story. Its a C13b9...but is it the right one? Are the right notes being phrased in a way that really makes the melodic statement true to the upper structure of the chord? We're all working with the same 12 notes...but it's about utilizing the notes that really live within the DNA of a given chord.
So quick example. I recorded this video in the shed earlier today. Partly for myself just to listen back and hear this stuff objectively, and partly to share with you guys. I was working on my D-11,9 chord. Which is a C major triad in the melodic structure sitting on top of a Dminor7 chord.
So here's a few things to notice. I have a Dmin7 drone going on my loop pedal. I start off playing a low C note. You can clearly hear that it doesn't sound like the root note. Then I follow that by playing the D note above it on the 5th fret which does sound like the root note...because it is.
@ 9 seconds: I start playing the C major triad notes in the lower position. Just the triad notes. They sound good, but completely separate from the D-min7 chord. At least to my ear. It sounds bi-tonal. Nice...just like two different tonalities. But I'm setting up our ears to hear a D-11,9...it's coming
@29 seconds: I play the first non C major triad note. I play an F note. Music theory tells us that's the minor 3rd of the Dminor chord and therefore should be a resolution note. It should sound stable. But it doesn't. Not to my ear. Not in this tonality. It sounds like 'Fa' wanting to resolve down to 'Mi' in my ear. Because in the context of the melodic structure, the F note is Fa...it's the 4th note of the C major scale. It also serve as the glue that connects the melodic structure and the harmonic structure. As soon as I hear that F note...which is a tension note in this context, the C Major triad no longer sounds disconnected from the D-7 chord behind it. They have unified into one sound in my ear. The sound of D-11,9. I play with the C Major triad + F note in different octaves and positions for a minute.
@55 seconds: The madness begins. I play a D note. 10th fret first string. A big ole' fat D note. But honestly, it doesn't sound resolved to my ear. I hear that as 'Re' wanting to resolve down to 'Do' (a C note). Insanity! Hahaha...this is what I meant earlier when I said this stuff messed with my head for weeks when I first noticed it. But listen to it. Listen how strong the pull and desire is for that D note to resolve down to C. AGAINST A Dminor CHORD!!! Crazy.
@1:30 I start playing little 3 note chords. I found these the same way I talked about earlier in this thread. Taking the four note structure (triad plus 1 extra tension note) and grouping them into 3 note voicings and then inverting them. Again, you can hear the chord with the F in its highest voice desperately wants to resolve down to the chord with the E in its highest voice. And the chord with C in its highest voice is actually the most stable and resolved of the 4 voicings. Because it has the "melodic DO" in its highest voice. Bizarre.
If (I should say when) I get my shapes down for D-7 or D-13,11, or D-9...or whatever else...each one will behave different. Yes...modally they're all basically the same. Each one is just from the D minor or D dorian scale. But the melodic content of each is unique. So the notes that will be accented as tension notes and resolution notes will be different. To me, as simple as the melodic ideas were I was playing (4 notes)...this sounds more interesting than just riffing on a basic scale or a pentatonic. My ear does start to crave adding more notes, but when I add them, it hears them in the context of C major being the melodic content. Hence, we get a D note sounding like 'Re' (the 2) against a D-7 chord. And there's something so rich with harmonic depth about this. It's simple, but so powerful. At least to my ear. I'm actually really curious what you guys all think. Again, this stuff is still fairly a new approach for me. Very different from what I've been doing the last many years. It's really honing my ears in differently. I'd love your most honest feedback.
-
Dang...another long-winded one :/
sorry guys
-
Hey Jordan... cool, I can hear what your playing and saying. But your implying what you want right. And basically when you have a pedal going on... anything can work, you can play traditional maj/min functional or voice leading games or use modal organization... or as you mentioned create bi-tonal harmony... when you hang on something so long, the stability thing pretty much go by the way side unless you really push the ears. But generally when your only playing what we're somewhat use to hearing, at least have heard before... when all the pieces aren't there... it's deceptive, camouflaged, there are options.
Your pedal sounded like... d f g... almost Gsus thing...
I dig your directions. And yea... poly or slash chords aren't complicated. Generally I use the root as reference and spell whats on top. I very rarely just play the notated chord of charts... I play chord patterns with lead lines which imply the changes and reinforce the harmonic style of what ever I'm playing.
So me hearing the Amin triad was basically because the standard relative min chord is generally the 1st relationship, in this case... phrygian b11 or just phrygian direction. Not C13 mixo...tonality ...C13b9 from Harm. maj. tonality.
I would hear and generally use the Amaj triad as A7b9#9b13 first... somewhat like we pull altered from 7th degree of melodic minor, enharmonic spelling etc... If the chord was spelled differently then I would reflect the spelling Generally C13b9 implies Harmonic Maj. the 11th would be natural unless other wise implied... from setting, melody etc... or a verbal note on chart.
I dig your somewhat modal... or not modal, whatever you call it... very cool. Thanks for posting
-
Yeah, it is almost like a mode...but like a reverse mode almost. I think of modes as using the same scale over different chirds, and in doing so it creates different sounds. Here it's more about analyzing the chord to find all the different scales that can be found within it. Similar to modes. But the emphasis is more on the finding the structure of the melodic content, and not just what notes work. Finding which notes are stable, which are tense, etc.
The he loop in the video is almost Gsus, D-11,9 is almost a Gsus just missing the G in the bass. But again, I would want to know WHICH Gsus. G13sus is the same 4 note thing...Cmajor triad + F. I would play almost identically over those two chords. But we also have G9sus, Gsus add3, G13sus b9add3, G-7sus...there's a bunch. And these are just the different sus chords derived using major triads. That's why I love this stuff. It's so specific. It brings a level of clarity in my ear that's challenging to come to without it. Possible. But a long and winding road.
Marins, I feel bad for hijacking your thread, but I really appreciate your post because I hadn't even thought about major triads with b5ths. I've been focused just on major triads so far and have close to 30 chords with them...some very basic and some super crazy weird ones that I almost never see (but will start using now!). My plan was to map out the major triad chords, then move on to minor, then diminished and augmented. And now I have a little more work because I'll have to add maj b5 into the mix.
I love this stuff. Even within a single scale there are so many options and different ways to approach a basic chord and its melodic relation.
-
So do I Jordan... I generally think of modal or modality as the choice of noted which create the tonality, tonality being the organized relationships between notes. Is that close to what you mean by using same scale, (notes), over different thirds, or are you still thinking in maj/min function harmony. Generally functional guidelines change with different modalities, different notes have the power to make changes, notes and interval move... gas, diesel, electric... different motors.
Looking forward to your collection and organization of triads etc...
-
Well what I mean by it's the same as the scale is that we're all dipping into the same cookie jar and there's only 12 cookies. So my little 4 note patterns that I'm currently working with are all going to be inside any number of scale options that someone might chose to use over a give chord. The only real differences I see are that they're a little more specific and concise to a given chord. Again to use D-11,9 as the example (cause it's so easy and sounds so good)...a D-11,9 is just the natural by product of what happens when the melody is outlining a C Maj triad type sound and the harmony is the D-7 chord. Again, a good chordal player will put the CMaj notes into the voicing to help glue the sound together. Now if someone goes to blow over that tune that doesn't understand upper structure of the chord, the assumption will be that the harmonic structure (D-7) are going to be considered chord tones. And frankly they are. But melodically every one of those notes is actually going to function as a tension against the true nature of what defines the sounds as the D-11,9...the C Major tonality in the melodic structure. It won't sound bad. And most other players won't know the different. But it's just like what was talked about in the OP. Like what the piano player was saying. It's the right notes, but something about it isn't quite right. And then we run into the issue that, even if we know to aim for those C Maj triad notes inside the 7 note scale...now we have 4 tension notes against 3 resolved notes. Which places the balance more on the tension side. Which is actually going to make it harder to do what you were talking about, to outline the chord. I've spent 15ish years studying chords and trying to really hone in on dealing with them, and for me this is a fairly logical next step in that same direction. I used to get super into the 3rds and 7ths, and still do sometimes. And then I started trying to get more hip and add in upper extensions and what not...but the upper extensions were never organized in any sort of real triadic fashion. In a sense they were because the chord is built in thirds. But I never stopped to take the time to REALLY organize the stuff.
And the implications of what can be done from this standpoint are pretty amazing. Just from the few ideas I've had the last couple months. Redesigning an entire new harmonic and chordal vocabulary with small, movable shapes that really accentuate specific tonalities. Being able to manipulate the harmony in specific ways. If I hear the soloist screaming out on the 9th of a minor chord, I can actually make a conscious decision about what type of tonality to put under him. Maybe just a -11,9 or even just a -9...or maybe he's really going for it and the band is going nuts and I want something super intense so I throw a -13,#11,9 under him! Woooo...a minor chord where the upper structure triad is the major chord built on the 2nd degree (DMaj/C-7)...nasty little chord! Then this system will also help me figure out how to deal with chords like the one I just mentioned. The basic chords that everyone uses and knows are cool, but what about -13,#11,9 chords? Or Maj7#11,#9 chords? And also just how to navigate in different directions through lush harmony and really know how to stay connected within it and how to voice lead it in a way that really brings out the depth of each chord. I've also started composing using the system. Which has helped me write more lyrical melodies (because they're based on triads with specific tension notes added for movement) and it helps me harmonize those melodies with tons of options. It can help build interesting and unique reharms for standards, since all I have to do is analyze the melody to find the triadic movement in the melodic structure, and then pick any number of options of chords that will perfectly harmonize it. Or I can use it to write out and arrange horn section harmonies by putting the 4 note structures into their voices. I mean for me it's like a whole new level of possibilities.
Not sure if that answers your question or not. I wasn't 100% sure what you were asking for. But it seemed like you were curious about how I view this stuff functionally.
-
It sounds cool... There is common organization for extensions right, all the notes have or can have a reference from which one can create relationships... right, thats what your doing, creating relationships and developing them.
I always can always hear complete note collections...unless that's not what the music is about. Like your creating different relationships and somewhat creating different guidelines for how the notes are reacting together, which notes you want to have the power... and which ones to not. Looking forward to where it ends up...
When I hear a min chord with a 9th, #11 and b13 I would generally still hear a enharmonic spelling of VI degree chord from Melodic Min. The #11 would enharmonically spelled from b5, pretty common practice when pulling from MM.
And Maj7 #9 #11 is generally from 6th degree of Har. Maj... doesn't half to be, but that is pretty much the starting reference, at least where I would start from to create new relationships.
I still like the concept of using different approach for arranging or composing etc...
I'm just interested... not worried about right, wrong etc... Functional aspects... there are many methods of creating movement in music, traditional maj/min functional harmony or as you said relating movement and function of Dmin with guidelines from Cmaj is just the basic starting point, and with jazz... with modal characteristics of changing the note(s) from which the movement or guideline are derives opens almost any door one chooses.
Reply With Quote
How is the Steve Howe 175?
Today, 05:54 PM in Guitar, Amps & Gizmos