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Easy to see why the Dom9ths and Dom7b9 aren't included (simply respellings of Diminished and Half Diminished chords), but what about Dom7#9?
Originally Posted by JanLF
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03-09-2015 10:03 AM
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Hi,
ok, well in the world of voicings on the guitar these are most commonly referred to as ninth chords without 5th's; nine no five voicings ( 9no5):
Cmaj9
C6/9
C-maj9
C-6/9
C-7/9
C9
C9sus4
C7b9
C7#9
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Great, thanks, do you have any tables for Rootless Dom chords? Originally Posted by JanLF
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I don't have any table for rootless dom chords planet...but I've found them to be some of the easier chords to find/develop rootless voicings for. Probably due to the fact that just playing the 3rd and 7th pretty much gives the full sound of a dominant chord. You can kind of do the 3rd/7th thing with major and minor 7s, but it really doesn't give the same clarity that comes with that tritone. Originally Posted by princeplanet
So just start with the tritone in the lowest two notes and then add notes accordingly, depending on what upper extensions you want. A good way to figure that out is maybe use the melody notes from a standard that are over a dominant chord. That way you're finding a new voicing AND finding one that's in the context of a tune.
For instance the B7 chord in bar 2 of Darn that Dream has an F natural note in the melody, which is the #11/b5
so if you take the B away and put the 3rd and 7th in the lowest voice, the F in the highest voice and fill in any other notes you can grab in between you might get something like
x6756x
From lowest to highest, that's 3-7-b9-#11/b5
You also may notice things like that this is just an F7 chord with 7th in the lowest voice...so it's just a tritone sub. You can find these chords in lots of ways. One is to take chords you already know and see how they can be applied in other ways (like taking F7 and seeing how it behaves if you superimpose a different root note...like B...under it). Or you can just build them from scratch based on the notes you want .
Another one I like is the E7 in bar 4, I sometimes play
x56667
Again, 3/7 in the bottom voices, melody on top...filled in the other voices with the upper extensions I wanted. Because it's an E7, you can play the open 6th string, but then it's not rootless. I also sometimes open up the 3rd string
x56067
This gives the G natural (#9) AND creates a half step between that and the 6th fret G# on the 4th string...which is a crunchy sound.
Anyways...hope that help inspire some exploring!
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Cool. I usually just alter the root in the Drop 2 forms, up a fret for b9, 2 for 9 and, ahem, 3 for #9 ! Not so thrilled about the sound of rootless #9 (not to mention the stretch factor!) Might go learn me some "no5" versions...
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Here's a couple rootless #9 voicings that I love! I'll put them all in E
x56433
xx6787
x11.12.12.12x
Again, you can add the open 6th string to any of these to get the root...and it's a good way to hear how they might behave with a bass player playing the root. But it's definitely worth working on them without the open string so that you can get the sound in your ear and then move them around to different keys.Last edited by jordanklemons; 03-10-2015 at 02:13 AM.
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Come to think of it, these are basically all what you said...the drop 2 voicing but moving the root note up a minor 3rd. Except the first voicing has a octave of the D note in it...but if you took the higher pitch D note out and put the G on the 2nd string, it would be that shape.
I like the doubled note though. I think the closed position G Major triad really makes that voicing ring out beautifully!
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Hi,
It must be stated that many of the inversions with a b3 is very hard to get around. When it comes to rootless 7th chords and dom7's a good way to use your drop2s would be somthing like this:
Tension 9 ("9 for 1") in drop2 type voicings
Cmaj7(9) = E-7 / G6
Cmaj7b5(9) = look underneath*
C-maj7(9) = Ebmaj7#5
C-7(9) = Ebmaj7
C-7(9) = Eb-maj7
C6(9) = A7sus4
C7(9) = E-7b5 / G-6
C7b9 = C#°7, E°7, G°7, Bb°7
C7#9 = Se under*
C7b5(9) = F#7#5 (sub V)
C7b5(b9) = F#7 (sub V)
C7b5(#9) = Se under*
C7#5(9) = E7b5 / Bb7b5
C7#5(b9) = Bb-7b5 / Db-6
C7#5(#9) = Emaj7b5
C7sus4(9) = G-7 / Bb6
C7sus4(b9) = G-7b5 / Bb-6
* Cmaj7b5(9), C7#9 og C7b5(#9) does not have a 4 note 7th/6th chord enharmonic substitute, but does have their own interesting subtitutes:
C7b5(#9) = Gb7(13) (subV)
C7(#9) = Gb7(b6/13) (subV)
Cmaj7b5(9) = D6(1 3 6 9) not a drop2 type voicing
SubV for every dominant:
C7(9) = F#7(#5/b9)
C7(b9) = F#7(b9)
C7#5(9) = F#7#5(9)
C7#5(b9) = F#7(9)
C7#5(#9) = F#7(13/9)
Enharmonic substitue chord seen from a common 7th chord:
Cmaj7 = A-9
Cmaj7b5 = A-6(9), Ab7(#5#9), D7(9/13)
Cmaj7#5 = A-maj7(9)
C-maj7 = A-9b5
C-6 = F9, D7sus4(b9), B7(#5b9)
C6 = Fmaj9, D7sus4(9)
C-7 = Abmaj9, F7sus4(9)
C-7b5 = Ab9, F7sus4(b9), D7(#5b9)
C7 = Gb7(b5b9)
C7b5 = Gb7b5, Ab9#5, D9#5
C7#5 = Gb9(b5)
C°7 = B7(b9), D7(b9), F7(b9), Ab7(b9)
C7sus4 = Eb6(9)
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Nice. Thanks, JanLF. You've posted a lot of content on this. Originally Posted by JanLF
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It must be stated clearly that everything I present here is based on Bret Willmott's classes and material. Now you can buy his books from Mel Bay. It will be the best investment in guitar harmony you'll ever do beside the classes itself.
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Jan, I'm not familiar with Bret's system, and honestly haven't been following every post written in this thread, so I might have missed something... Originally Posted by JanLF
But would the enharmonic substitute of the C7#9 be an EdimMaj7 chord? If by enharmonic I assume you mean a different chord that can be substituted in it's place (and gets rid of the "C" root). Then I believe the EdimMaj7 would give a rootless C7#9 chord.
The CMaj7b5(9) could be a B-11 no? Granted, the A natural would give a natural 13 to the C which you may want to avoid, so maybe just a straight up Bminor(add4)? Ah, but then it's not a 7th/6th chord, right? Which it needs to be? So maybe GMaj7...if you're using the CMaj7b5(9) as a CMaj7#11(9) (which would imply also having the natural 5 ("G"), then that would work.
G - B - D - F#
5 7 9 #11
But like I said, I haven't been keeping up with this entire thread, so don't worry about it if I'm way off base with any of this.
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Hi Jordan, you are right "on base" I'd say :-)
yes, a rootless C7#9 included the 5th is a Edimmaj7 (D#/E). The Cmaj7b5(9) as 9,b5,7,3 would be a D6/9 9no5 voicing or as 5,7,9,#11 a Gmaj7 (then really a Cmaj9#11 I guess) or as #11,9,3,6 a F#-7#5.
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Holy smokes a lot of ink goes down about Drop chords.
It doesn't matter to understand the link between close and drop voicings.
String sets perhaps.
Drop 2 = 4 adjacent strings (Of a given chord and it's inversions)
Drop 3 = A Bass Note, a skipped string and three notes (Of a given chord and it's inversions)
Drop 2/4 = Two adjacent notes (5th/4th usually) a skipped string and two more notes.(Of a given chord and it's inversions)
Drop 2/3 = Three adjacent notes, a skipped string and one more note.(Of a given chord and it's inversions)
With all due respect to the posters above lets remember we want to move chords not just hit them.
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Seems to me there's a lot of different approaches to learning and using all this stuff A. It's great that it's so obvious for you, and that you get it...but many of the people here are not as familiar with the stuff, and whether they're moving through chords, or simply trying to learn a new voicing here or there to harmonize a particular part of a melody, everyone has to start somewhere. You can't climb to the top of the mountain by looking up and pointing at the peak, you gotta walk...and that involves taking a lot of small steps....and always starts with a single step. Just as I'm sure you didn't always know the visual and physical placement of the notes for each given series of drop voicings and had to build and develop that comfort level. I think it's a healthy step in the process of gaining comfort - or even mastery - of these things to ask questions like this and wrap our minds around these things. Originally Posted by A. Kingstone
And frankly, I haven't kept up with the whole thread because there definitely is A LOT of ink, you're right about that. But I haven't seen anything stated here that's not moveable. I have spent a lot of time on different drop shapes (not only for guitar but also for arranging) and I have seen a lot of this substitution stuff as well. I don't currently focus on that stuff at all these days...though I have in the past and I'm sure I will come back to it again at some point in the future...but I have other priorities at the moment. But some very heavy players spend an enormous amount of time thinking about and practicing those types of ideas...Ben Monder and Brad Shepik to name the first two that I know of. And those dudes can move through chords like nobody's business!! I studied with Shepik for a while and we talked about many things...some of the stuff I've seen on this thread looks awfully similar to some of the conversations he and I had. And I've read the Ben Monder "email lesson", and again, very similar. It's all moveable. But not until it's understood (at least physically and visually) and integrated. But it's hard to integrate things if you don't practice them. And for many people (myself included) it's hard to practice something if I don't understand it and am totally confused by the whole idea of it.
Just my two cents. Everyone's at a different level with their playing.
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My lack of talent needs an organized way for praticing and I do want to understand the building blocks of most stuff - especially when I "hit" them instead of moving them...
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