Tri tone subs

[haydontd]

Hi,

my guitar teacher is explaining tri tone subs in a complicated way.
in key of G he says if you want sub V of V
1. Think D7
2. Think A7
3. Flat 5 of A ( E Flat) so you get A C# Eb G
4. Now there is a tri tone sub- an E flat, G A (flat 5) C# (D flat- 7th)

any my easier way to figure out tri tone subs?

[nick1994]

any dominant chord can be substituted by another a dominant chord a tritone away. Eg. I, VI, II, V in C, sub the VI for bIII, II for bVI and V for bII. C, A7, D7, G7 becomes C, Eb7, Ab7, Db7

[AlainJazz]

The easiest way is to memorize them and not think so much.

[Bambus123]

Here is how I learnt to find a tritone of a key.

I think of it as a ladder with 13 steps from C to C (one octave higher). You can use the frets on the fretboard to count steps.

The tritone is the seventh step away from the root/key note, or the (7) note in the middle of the 13 steps, aka the augumented/raised fourth (#4) or the diminished/lowered fifth (b5), same sound, different names..

In the key of C the tritone would be F#/Gb, the seventh fret or step:

1 2 3 4 5 6 |7 step | 8 9 10 11 12 13 - (Steps/frets)
1 b2 2 b3 3 4 |Tritone| 5 b6 6 b7 7 8 - (Intervals)
C Db D Eb E F |F#/Gb | G Ab A Bb B C - (Notes)

In the key of G the tritone would be C#/Db, the seventh fret or step:

1 2 3 4 5 6 |7 step | 8 9 10 11 12 13 - (Steps/frets)
1 b2 2 b3 3 4 |Tritone| 5 b6 6 b7 7 8 - (Intervals)
G Ab A Bb B C |C#/Db | D Eb E F Gb G - (Notes)

So if I want to find a tritone sub for any given chord, I start with the key of the chord and count up to the 7th step of this ladder

[A. Kingstone]

On guitar they are in most cases a diagonal line ( \ ) away from each other.

One string higher, one fret up. Or one string lower, one fret down.

(except G/B string set)



There are only (enharmonically)6 pairs:


C / F#
Db / G
D / Ab
Eb / A
E / Bb
F / B

[AlainJazz]

On guitar they are in most cases a diagonal line ( \ ) away from each other.

One string higher, one fret up. Or one string lower, one fret down.

(except G/B string set)



There are only (enharmonically)6 pairs:


C / F#
Db / G
D / Ab
Eb / A
E / Bb
F / B

This is exactly right. Just memorize them using the diagonal approach above and you're good to go.

[haydontd]

Thanks everyone

[docbop]

Easiest way is to just know your your intervals both theory-wise know what tritone (#4th) up or down is, and how they lay on the guitar. Because tritone sub's aren't only for dominants.

[haydontd]

What are some jazz standards that use tri tone subs, Days of Wine and Roses?
are there typical progressions that use tri tone subs?

[docbop]

What are some jazz standards that use tri tone subs, Days of Wine and Roses?
are there typical progressions that use tri tone subs?

By they are chord substitutions for other chords, commonly dominants. A way to spot tritone subs is typically people use them to create chromatic root movement of chords. Think about playing Blues a common thing you probably do is go up a half-step and back on a chord change, well technically that's a that half-step could be considered a tritone sub. you're creating a "V of" but using the tritone sub instead of the "V of". So it's probably a sound you're familiar with already from your Blues playing.

[KirkP]

What are some jazz standards that use tri tone subs, Days of Wine and Roses? are there typical progressions that use tri tone subs?

One clue that tritone subs have been used in a chart is when you find one chord followed by another with the root a half step lower. If you "undo" that substitution you'll have two chords a fifth apart.

For example, if you're reading a chart with a progression:
Em7 Eb7 Dm7 Db7 C

The "vanilla" version of that progression (before the tritone subs were added) was probably based on the good old cycle of fifths:
Em7 A7 Dm7 G7 C

Once you're back to the vanilla chart, you can then apply tritone subs to different chords and end up with something quite different. For example:
Bb7 A7 Ab7 G7 C

[wolflen]

Lydian Dominant is my choice of scales. These two choices cut the octave in half at the tritone, and they are interchangeable. OK all you experts, if I'm totally wrong here, I'll withdraw this advice but I think it's simple.
David

there is also the TriTone Scale..a very cool sounding hexatonic scale that can be used over many different chords..

1-b2-3-b5-5-b7 / C Db E Gb G Bb

[Takemitsu]

how I see it

vanila: | | | |

tritone: / / / /

[PMB]

What are some jazz standards that use tri tone subs, Days of Wine and Roses?
are there typical progressions that use tri tone subs?

Tadd Dameron's "Lady Bird" employs tritone subs for its turnaround.

[edh]

Easiest way is to just know your your intervals both theory-wise know what tritone (#4th) up or down is, and how they lay on the guitar. Because tritone sub's aren't only for dominants.

@docbop, Could you give some examples of this please, and explain why it is that you can use tri-tones for other type of chords? It was my understanding that tritone's were only valid for Dom 7th chords. I ask this question because I'm currently studying this and It makes no explanation as to why you can use other chords as tri-tone subs.

Thanks
edh

[Cunamara]

Also, look at the essential relationships between tritone subs. For example, in the key of C the V = G7; the b5 sub for G7 = Db7.

G7 = G B D F

Db7 = Db F Ab Cb (or B)

Both chords share the notes F and B. For the G7 B & F are the 3rd and the 7th; for the Db7 F & B are the 3rd and the 7th. The same notes but their roles in the chords are inverted. This commonality is a big part of what makes the tritone sub work. In addition to the tritone sub, with this basic idea of shared notes you'll find that you can often use a chord that shares two or more notes as a sub.

Looking at the common tetrads (four note chords) in the key of C, for example, you can exchange:

Cmaj7 and Emin7 (sharing G, B and E) and Cmaj7 and Amin7 (sharing C, E and G and all four notes with a C6 chord)

Dmin7 and G7 (sharing D and F); Dmin7 can also sub for Fmaj7 (sharing the F, A and C) although I don't find that this holds up with G7 and Fmaj7 because they share only one note (F)

G7 and Bmin7b5 are also interchangeable (sharing B, D and F)

Joe Pass said that how he thought about chord movement for soloing over was to think of two chords: V and I. Using the above ideas, I = iii = vi and V = ii = vi = vii. All 7 chords in a key, simplified to the V and the I by Joe Pass. I suspect he was oversimplifying his thinking for the sake of the instructional video, though.

[jasaco]

@docbop, Could you give some examples of this please, and explain why it is that you can use tri-tones for other type of chords? It was my understanding that tritone's were only valid for Dom 7th chords. I ask this question because I'm currently studying this and It makes no explanation as to why you can use other chords as tri-tone subs.

edh, if you scroll back up to KIRKP's post (#11), you'll see an example where he used tritone subs for two m7 chords.

[docbop]

@docbop, Could you give some examples of this please, and explain why it is that you can use tri-tones for other type of chords? It was my understanding that tritone's were only valid for Dom 7th chords. I ask this question because I'm currently studying this and It makes no explanation as to why you can use other chords as tri-tone subs.

Thanks
edh

Can use it for II-V's and sometimes people with take a section of chords and shift them up a tri-tone and resolve on the last chord. Now you could leave the original chord type the same, but some with change the type to a dominant. The whole thing is the strength of the root movement. Best is to just experiment with it and hear it.

I been going through this with a teacher and analyzing a progression and they keep saying its all II-V's, but I'm keep seeing all these dominant. Then realize some are tritone subs, the then on others see they being called II-V's but they are all use CoF movement. That melody and root movement is primary and everything else is secondary. So impression I'm getting is if the root movement is strong then the chord type is of less important. Looking forward to my next talk to confirm my impression.

[KirkP]

Tadd Dameron's "Lady Bird" employs tritone subs for its turnaround.

Yes! A diatonic cycle-of-fifths turnaround in the key of C is:
Cmaj7 Amin7 Dmin7 G7

Make tritone subs to the last three chords and make them all maj7 for color and you have the last four chords of Lady Bird:
Cmaj7 Ebmaj7 Abmaj7 Dbmaj7

I look at the tritone subs as a tool to help get chromatic movement into my chord voicings -- not just the bass line. but the middle voices as well.

[gnatola]

I don't think of a tritons away from original Dom 7. Simply play a dominant 7th chord a semitone higher than the target chord.

[Reg]

Generally when you say tritone sub your implying inverting the tritone of a dominant chord and subbing with the resulting dominant chord,
G7 take the tritone...B and F, the 3rd and b7th, flip the notes over to become F and B which are the tritone of Db7.

As mentioned above... B-7b5 is diatonic sub for G7 and also has tritone... root and b5th, so you cand again swap the tritone over and B-7b5 becomes F-7b5.

So you start with,
D-7 G7 Cmaj7 becomes,
D-7 Db7 Cmaj7, or sub B-7b5 for the G7
D-7 B-7b5 Cmaj7, which becomes
D-7 F-7b5 Cmaj7

The more interesting part is where you spell out the rest of the notes.

You can as mentioned above then start creating different applications of using the actual interval of a tritone ...

Apply the sub tritone application to root notes, and different chords'

D-7 G-7 C-7 becomes,
D-7 Db-7 C-7...

So the next level of how you use is applying different harmonic organization, modal interchange, modal concepts... add related chords, chord patterns...use of blue notes with modal interchange... and always... Melodic minor.

[fumblefingers]

one basic way to think about one simple example is the ubiquitous II-V-I progression or IImi7-V7-IMaj7 in major.

turn that into IIm7-bII7-IMaj7


to get the hang of it, try some descending II-V-I progressions using Drop-3 voicings.

Dmi7-G7-CMaj7

Cmi7-F7-BbMaj7

Bbmi7-Eb7-AbMaj7

etc

Then change it to:

Dmi7-Db7-CMaj7

Cmi7-B7-BbMaj7

Bbmi7-A7-AbMaj7

[edh]

Thanks guys for the explanations. I had all along thought that tri-tone subs were exclusively used on dom. chords only.

thanks again guys.

edh