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I'm wondering if anyone here finds imagining a separate rhythm section in their head helpful with staying in time when comping by yourself or even playing in a group. I'm trying to break that tendency to rely on the group for time and become responsible for my own time. Suggestions or comments?
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12-15-2014 11:00 PM
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If I-m with actual people, I listen to them, but when I'm by myself I always have a rhythm section in my head. This week it's Joey Baron and Marc Johnson.
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A lot of the new group with more of the melodic drummers will say everyone is responsible for their own time. But bottom line the band has to be in time so it doesn't matter if one person is looked upon or not the time has to be together and Swing, Groove, or pick you favorite term.
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It absolutely helps, and it's a really hard skill to develop. The only way to imagine playing with a tasteful drummer is to actually get experience playing with one. You also kind of have to learn the practical role of the bassist and drummers, and pianist if you're going to think of that too.
I know some people who think of big bands when they play, like when they play backgrounds and "stabs" during someone's solo.
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Well that's what I'm trying to do, imagine a rhythm section in my head, it is very hard but it also shows that I don't spend enough time listening to bassists and drummers. Maybe it's not as helpful when in a group situation because as docbop said the band has to be together to swing regardless of who's keeping the time, but it should improve comping alone.
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If you're playing with people, I would simplify whatever you're doing, so you can first lock into the rhythm section. I know guys who will start playing and come off with a line of 8th notes that's not locked in, and by the 4th bar, the time is all over the place and it's a train wreck. You can take your time to hook up with the guys playing with you. No one is waiting for you to finish and if everything you do is together with the band, people will appreciate you taking your time to listen and lock in. If this means playing 2 notes for the first 4 bars, or even laying out just so you can let them get something going, then so be it.
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I wouldn't say that I'm "imagining" a rhythm section...but sometimes when I practice I definitely am playing in time, even if it's just by myself. We shouldn't need a drummer or a bassist to hold down the time. Otherwise we're reliant upon them. Depending on what I'm practicing, sometimes I intentionally slow down and play rubato...I think of it almost like tai chi...slowly trying to build a new muscle memory pattern or a new thought process. But when it comes to making things practical, it's gotta be in time.
Recently I've been using this app DrumGenius. Have you guys checked it out? They have some great drum loops to play along with that swing pretty hard. There's no bass or chords, which I like...it means I really have to know the tune. But it's fun to throw some headphones and feel like I'm playing a duo with drums. Free app and 3 free drum loop for download. Gotta pay like $10 to download all of them. But there are like over 300 and they add more from time to time. Odd times, swing, ballads, uptempo, new orleans, funk...it's a great practice tool.
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I use band in a box. That way I can add or eliminate instruments as necessary. Usually I use drums and upright bass, but occasionally I'll use a piano.
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I agree that every musician is responsible for their own time and that we have to be independent when it comes to time but I was wondering if hearing rythm section when playing solo would help solidify the pulse internally. It's an internal thing I think.
Originally Posted by jordanklemons
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I just like it because it makes leaving space while playing solo so much easier...less "fear of dead air."
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Yeah I hear you. I just don't feel that having an internal pulse and imagining a rhythm section are necessarily equivalent. And for me, I like playing and performing solo...and I would prefer not to do anything that will separate myself, my mind, my concentration, or my experience of the music away from the actual sounds I'm creating. If I'm listening to a rhythm section in my mind that's not really there it creates two different creations...one that is really happening that everyone can hear...and one that isn't as real and only in my mind. For me, I'd prefer to work on my time, but focus on the sounds that are really there. It just seems a little more grounded and human that way. Originally Posted by nick1994
Obviously, if it helps you tighten up your rhythm that way than go with what works for you...it's just my preference to remove as many steps between myself and my music as possible. I feel like when everything gets boiled down, for me, the goal of practicing should always be to bring myself and my music closer together...make them more intimate. I like to remove unnecessary things whenever possible. But again...that's just what I like to do. I think everyone should go with what works for them.
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As the soloist the rhythm section should be responding to you, unless you've make contact with say the drummer and working together on some poly-rhythms or working with the piano on some harmonic ideas. Originally Posted by nick1994
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Somebody told me that this is a thing that someone famous said that they did when they played, but as I have forgotten who is was who was said to have said that, you may choose to doubt me on that. Although it would be, to be fair, difficult to question my veracity.
In other news, would it help to imagine a completely different rhythm section to the one you are playing with? :-)
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I remember hearing that Louis Armstrong always tried to hear a different rhythm section from the one he was playing with. I don't know if it's true or not. Originally Posted by christianm77
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IMO, playing with a playalong is absolutely no substitute to playing with others and it's also not an equivalent to being able to listen and picture a rhythm section. Good bands sound good because there's interaction, and if you don't have the creativity and command to lead the rhythm section a certain way, there's no interaction and the music will just not be interesting. This is one of the main things that separates students/amateurs and professionals. A lot of guys get too comfortable playing with playalongs and when it's time to play with people they treat the band as their live aebersold playalong and it's a drag for everyone involved.
You obviously need to play in relationship to some sort of time when practicing. Whether it be metronomic time, clock time, or no time, if you're aware of what you're doing and it's intentional, then you're doing the correct thing. When you practice in relationship to a form of time with no external aid, you're forced to picture what a bass player, or drummer would be doing to react to what you just did.
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Interesting. Louis was one of the best rhythm sections in jazz. It just so happened he played trumpet. Originally Posted by nick1994
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At least Aebersold recordings feature top notch professional musicians playing authentic jazz time/feel. Some people practice with iRealB or Band in a Box (shudder.) Originally Posted by jtizzle
However what I often forget is that playing with (good) musicians is always better than practicing on your own, I can get a bit neurotic about 'practice time' and anything that cuts into it. But I always learn way more rehearsing or having a play with good musicians...
Many, many musicians have said you can't learn how to interact or really swing by practicing on your own.
For example - Hal Galper said something like 'you practice so you get good enough to work.' So you learn the basics, I guess.
If you can take away the experience of playing with good players and imagine and remember how it feels to play with them, then I suspect you start to become a player who has good time yourself.
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Personally... there is not just one way etc... for most things.
The bottom line with performing with ensemble, band etc... you need to have time. If you can't play in time, things fall apart. It happens all the time, I gig with great players that make mistakes... and some just have lousy time.
But that is a problem... it shouldn't happen. If you can't get the time thing together.... stop everything else, and fix the problem, change whatever bad habits you've developed. Playing and performing in time etc... is not like something you'll work on.... you can't play Jazz with out it. Everything else comes after time....
Many musicians fake their way through gigs or whatever by playing off others time... that's not playing as an ensemble... I hate having to cue time etc... that's not making music, it's work.
I'm not talking about making mistakes, taking chances and crashing etc...
I don't use Biab or JA... I do seem to end up with many of his charts.... lots of mistakes, but at least they're a chart that you can start from. But they must be OK, Besides the interaction and reaction. Even if they are just a glorified metronome... that's how you practice developing Time, with some type of metronome, right.
Performing or playing live music is where you can start creating relationships with time, become aware of feels, grooves, what make feels lock. Yada yada ... but you need time before you start using it.
I generally always hear music with a form, style or feel and some type of arrangement... all notes imply a harmony. I just can't help it, that's the way my ears work. It's not limiting, I can hear multiple tonal references simultaneously etc...
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The bassist Ed Fuqua teaches that playing with an imaginary band in your head keeps you from playing with the real band that you're actually on the stand with. Originally Posted by Nick
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Not according to everyone. Originally Posted by Reg
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Could you elaborate? Thanks Originally Posted by christianm77
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There are many jazz musicians who have great time who have never practiced with a metronome - a good example is Barry Harris, who said so in a workshop I was at. Another example would be Gary Willis. Originally Posted by edh
In any case there was some controversy on the subject recently which you can follow by typing 'Adam Rafferty Metronome' into Google. I won't repeat the arguments here (there's been a lot of wordage) but I was surprised that many educators and musicians I respected with agreed with Adam. Before this I thought metronome practice was universally considered the way to develop time feel. It turned out the actual truth is more complex.
Certainly there were many great musicians who never practiced with a click in their lives, and many who did. It's become much more prevalent in recent years probably due to the expansion of jazz education. I myself continue to use the metronome in my practice.
Anyway, somewhat off-topic...Last edited by christianm77; 12-28-2014 at 08:06 AM.
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I 'm sorry if my comment was not clear. We basically have two types of situations to develop time, either by developing internally... that is you learn from your inner clock. Or you learn from an external clock.
My point is a metronome, a backing track or a live ensemble etc... are all external learning approaches.
I personally believe we all need to learn time from external sources. Early childhood, church or whatever. I don't believe we magically just have time...
I have time and never used a metronome either... but had lots of childhood experiences that help me develop time... all the performance and working within bands help develop what was already created.
I don't think it that complicated... you either believe you have time as a gift from someone or somewhere or you learn time from someone or somewhere.
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12-28-2014, 02:45 PM #24destinytot Guest
Re. band in one's head, I got a great tip from Joe Lee Wilson (RIP): "Always syncopate the silence."
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As I mentioned, there are different types of pulse. One of them is metronomic time, but that's not the end all of it. And a lot of guys don't like to play with perfect metronomic time. I think time naturally fluctuates, and is never even. The best example of this for me is Miles' second quintet, where time was just all over the place, but it feels so good to listen to.
I've studied with Joe Morris. If you don't know him, he is one of the guitarists that gets to play with Braxton pretty often. Also, Mary Halvorson's teacher back from school. He wrote a book mainly on the topic of free music (which is a really good buy for $20). He focuses a lot on the topic of time, and in a few interviews he conducted for the book, a lot of people really consider time as well. But not in the traditional sense. He implies that every musical idea must relate to a pulse, but there are many types of pulses. Metronomic time, clock time, rubato time, no time. As long as you're conscious and aware of what type of pulse you're relating to, you're doing the correct thing. The thing here is that there are many tools that you can use to practice metronomic time without musicians, but all the others don't have tools like metronomes to play with. You can't set a metronome to "rubato bpms", for example. When working out this form of pulse, there has to be some thought put into how you imagine your rhythm section playing the time with you. Are you going to play like Ornette, where the rhythm section is playing time but you're not? Are you going to play like Cecil Taylor and use no time at all? Or will you do a Braxton thing and have two different pulses going on at the same time? That's the importance of being able to listen for a rhythm section, either in your head or out of it.
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