Hearing the rhythm section?

[christianm77]

He implies that every musical idea must relate to a pulse, but there are many types of pulses. Metronomic time, clock time, rubato time, no time. As long as you're conscious and aware of what type of pulse you're relating to, you're doing the correct thing.

What's the difference between metronome time and clock time?

[jtizzle]

First and foremost, units. Metronomic time has BPMs as units, clock time has clock units (seconds, minutes). As far as usage, they can be totally similar, or totally different. Metronomic time is obvious, and we all recognize it, set your metronome to so many BPMs. You can set your metronome to 60 BPMs and say "well that's the same as a clock", but it's not the same usage given. In modern classical compositions, mainly those that use a fair amount of chance, instruct the player to "do this for 3 minutes". The tempo you take or not take whatever you're doing in those three minutes are entirely up to you, but it's not the focus. The pulse you're thinking about is the three minute pulse. Normally, you'd have a conductor or a leader do the counting for you.

[christianm77]

First and foremost, units. Metronomic time has BPMs as units, clock time has clock units (seconds, minutes). As far as usage, they can be totally similar, or totally different. Metronomic time is obvious, and we all recognize it, set your metronome to so many BPMs. You can set your metronome to 60 BPMs and say "well that's the same as a clock", but it's not the same usage given. In modern classical compositions, mainly those that use a fair amount of chance, instruct the player to "do this for 3 minutes". The tempo you take or not take whatever you're doing in those three minutes are entirely up to you, but it's not the focus. The pulse you're thinking about is the three minute pulse. Normally, you'd have a conductor or a leader do the counting for you.

Interesting stuff.

[Reg]

We might be camouflaging the concept of time with application or uses of time.

I seriously doubt we could put any musicians in separate rooms and they would keep the same 3 min pulse.

It's rare when musicians can keep seconds together.

Time generally implies musicians repeat the pulse. They very mechanically repeat, almost like a mechanical clock. Granted that's not what performance is about, but it sure helps.

[jtizzle]

We wouldn't put them in separate rooms, which is why I mentioned there is normally a leader or conductor for this type of setting. Clock time is indeed an accepted form of pulse, but what we're talking about here is the use of a rhythm section and the thought of interacting with one. In context of clock time pulse, while playing with a rhythm section, there will be some form of underlying pulse under the clock time. The idea in this thread is that imagining a rhythm section helps your time, and if you're using clock time as your pulse, imagining the rhythm section during this should help make your playing more interesting, in this case.

[christianm77]

We might be camouflaging the concept of time with application or uses of time.

I seriously doubt we could put any musicians in separate rooms and they would keep the same 3 min pulse.

It's rare when musicians can keep seconds together.

Time generally implies musicians repeat the pulse. They very mechanically repeat, almost like a mechanical clock. Granted that's not what performance is about, but it sure helps.

They do say musicians are better at telling time without a clock. I wonder if you couldn't work on this.

In an improvisation workshop I did a year or two ago I did find that I was getting progressively better at improvising pieces exactly 30" long both in ensembles and solo. This is a common phenomenon I believe....

[Reg]

OK... so there is the point about improving ones playing from hearing a band in one's head.

A different aspect developed from that discussion... the point about time, (not telling time without a clock), the one about pulse, the time that involves even tempo, counting, subdivisions etc...

jtizzle... Isn't clock time a compositional technique. I've composed music with sections of notated music for each performer or sections of performers and the composition was constructed in timed out sections. I cued the beginning and ending, and dynamics etc... one of the aspects of those compositions was the relationships of the timed sections, Cage stuff etc..

and yes that is an accepted, or was, Form of using time compositionally... but what is the relationship with even tempo time, how would one develop that skill internally, it's conducted.

It's all good, but with regard to being able to perform in Time, not rubato, just simple steady even temp time that repeats, isn't that where all this starts with. You can create relationships with something if you don't have it.

[jtizzle]

Clock time is absolutely a compositional technique, if anything. But I honestly believe that one should always try to make their improvisations compositional. Obviously if you're playing standards or form based tunes, there's a compositional technique in play there. The rhythm section playing, or not playing with you, will be confined to a metronomic pulse, in BPMs, regardless of using a metronome or not to get the time. As I think I mentioned, when playing more improvisational music, a band leader can request open time improvisation over a certain motive, tonality, drone, or nothing, for a certain time. Usually in a free setting someone will be leading this. Maybe they bandleader will have his phone on a music stand set to a chronometer. But I consider this pulse, even or uneven. It can be a repeating time frame (i.e. every 2 minutes), uneven time (i.e. increments like 1 min > 2 min > 3 mins), or non-repeating (i.e. John Cage's 4'33 I consider to be non-repeating time).
I just give the example of all types of time because I have gotten into more improvised music, which may use these as options. Chances are when playing solo, one may possibly imagine Max Roach playing time and comping for you. But many times, for example, I will be practicing playing free, and will use different approaches. Sometimes I can imagine an Ed Blackwell playing time with no form for me, or sometimes I can think of a Sunny Murray or Andrew Cyrille playing free time for me, and just reacting. As the leader for my improvisation, I will consider if I'd like to use metronomic time, or want to improvise considering real time.

[KirkP]

I'm wondering if anyone here finds imagining a separate rhythm section in their head helpful with staying in time when comping by yourself or even playing in a group. ...

When playing solo, my imaginary rhythm section is usually a bass line with something like an imaginary tractor motor chugging away in the background for percussion. Maybe that's why my favorite drummers sound like tractors. ;-)

[nick1994]

When playing solo, my imaginary rhythm section is usually a bass line with something like an imaginary tractor motor chugging away in the background for percussion. Maybe that's why my favorite drummers sound like tractors. ;-)

[voxss]

I use band in a box. That way I can add or eliminate instruments as necessary. Usually I use drums and upright bass, but occasionally I'll use a piano.

ADD Freddie GREEN

[KirkP]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1ThSi1wbqU

I knew that was coming. But my tractor is hipper than that one. ;^)