-
I was wondering how chord progressions like I7 - b77 (e.g A13 - G13) would be analysed? Are chord movements like these often referred to more as grooves or chord patterns than progressions or would it be correct to see the b7 as a tritone sub of the iii chord that has been modal interchanged to III7 Alt. ? I know it probably doesn't particularly matter but i'm interested to hear about other peoples harmonic interpretations of chords used in progressions that aren't diatonic.
Thanks
-
11-06-2014 01:49 PM
-
I'd call that "bVII7" if I were you - otherwise it looks like "flat seventy seven"
Originally Posted by sambrooker
The bVII7 chord is pretty common in jazz, resolving back to I - "backdoor progression" - but the I is usually a maj7 or 6, not the same dom7 type of chord. The bVII7 would be lydian dominant.
Personally, I'd say two alternating dom7s a whole step apart has no functional interpretation. It's a kind of mode mixture, IMO. Of course it resembles V7-IV7 of a blues, but making them I-bVII gives it a different vibe.
I guess you're thinking in this case of Killer Joe? (That's the only tune I know with alternating I7 and bVII7 chords.)
-
It's not functional harmony so you don't have to explain it. Just find notes that sound good.
-
You can make a number of analysis... An analysis is just definition of how you choose to define how the, in this case, the chords work together with relationship to a reference.
With just A13 going to G13... there's not a lot of info. so there are a lot of options.
But calling G13 a sub for III7alt... is fairly common with Bluesy jazz....
You start with a I7 going to IV7... pretty much the basic reference for all Blues, anyway you use the diatonic III chord or III-7b5 as approach to the IV7 chord... (or as passing diatonic sub of I7)
/ A13 C#-7b5 / D9 E7#9 /
And yes with use of Modal interchange...the III-7b5 or C#-7b5 can become a III7altered which opens the door for either a Tritone sub or simple function sub from Melodic Min... same notes, different root.
So the progression becomes...
/ A13 G13 / D9 Bb13 /...........I also used sub of E7#9 ... Bb13
Another source using modal interchange.... A13 is I and the IV chord from use of modal interchange to parallel Minor becomes IV-7
I chord becomes I7 and then through MI to Parallel Min. the IV chord becomes IV-7 , now add the related V7 chord,
Amaj becomes A13, Dmaj becomes D-7 with related V7 or G7,
A13 / D-7 G13 /... II V's are common chord pattern in jazz... now drop the II-.... A13 to G13
Long story for... using what many call a backdoor cadence to I... (A13), where the bVII7 is the pivot chord of a II V borrowed through Modal interchange to Parallel Minor of target tonal reference... In your example that Target is A13.
You can keep playing plug and play analysis game to derive different note collections for that bVII chord... but when your calling it G13... your basically spelling out what you want and the possible analysis.Last edited by Reg; 11-07-2014 at 09:13 AM.
-
Thanks for your input reg ( and everyone else), always great to hear your views, that's made things a lot clearer, I think I seem to over think things from time to time and get confused over silly little things. What's the chances of you uploading some more tune analysis/lesson type videos of your approaches over standards? I miss them haha! You always spark new ideas into my playing.
Thanks again
-
It's a sound we like to hear. I hear I and bVII used a LOT in folk music styles like Bluegrass. Making it dominant adds a Blues and Jazz flavor to it. It is a cool thing to improvise over as almost anything works.
-
Here's one other pretty simple way to look at it, triggered by remembering a Ted Greene master class video I saw. He opined that there are three kinds of keys: major, minor and dominant. In functional harmony we think of the dominant chord as the V7, but Ted pointed out that it blues/jazz blues/rock/country, the I chord is often a dominant chord, hence thinking of a key of G dominant rather than G major or G minor.
If we accept that as reasonable, then whole step sequence such as A13 to G13 becomes a II7 - I7 motion. In jazz it is common to sub a dominant chord for a minor 7th chord (or a string of them), such as
| B7 E7 | A7 D7 | Gmaj7 (III-VI-II-V-I)
rather than the diatonic
| Bmin7 Emin7 | Amin7 D7 | Gmaj7 (iii-vi-ii-V-I)
so it is reasonable to look at A13 to G13 as a II7 - I7. I find that much easier than trying to wrap my aging mental faculties around Reg's multiple subs/modal interchanges/etc. I can barely manage a freeway interchange, let alone a modal interchange. I try to make this theory stuff as easy on myself as I can.Last edited by Cunamara; 11-10-2014 at 11:58 PM.
-
In long run your ear is the judge. Like blues were you have I7, IV7, and V7 all dominant. When you change from the I7 to the IV7 does your ear tell you, you're in an new key no, it still sound like the key of the I7. So if in doubt use your ear does it sound like you changed key?
-
Yea... if your playing, your responsible for your choices, use your ears, what ever you have.
Most of my example are very typical and I was using A13 as I or tonal center, Cunamaras example was using G13 as tonal center... very different from I7 to bVII7 with A7 being tonal center.
But his examples of dominant cycles or secondary and extended dominants is also very typical and useful applications. And yea... trying to explain harmony does make me think way more than I do when I play, sometimes I wonder what I'm doing here.Last edited by Reg; 11-11-2014 at 08:36 AM.
-
if someone could help me. I don't get this, at all. I'll try to read it backwards, maybe it will help? Originally Posted by Reg
G7 is borrowed to parallel minor of A13 (A mel min?) where it serves as a pivot chord of II V?
II V in A mel min? Whatever the chords are, they are Bmin and E7 of a kind.
So, where do I find G7?
Now, I do see relation among Bmin chords Edom chords and Gdom chords. Is that the key and how is it really done?
-
Interested to hear the follow up as well, but it's Friday; not sure when. it's here in the paragraphs before. the minor iv from A minor =dm7. G7= sub for dm7?
Originally Posted by Reg
Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 11-21-2014 at 07:38 AM.
-
I need to ask this question and really I'm not trolling...I just wonder. Why do we have to analyze it? Either it sounds good to you the player or listener, or it doesn't. It seem to be an exercise in scrutinizing for its own sake. If I play or write a song with that progression in it, it's because it fits...to my ears.
I spent 37 years as a successful professional pilot and pilot educator and never knew, applied or memorized the equation for the coefficient of lift. Never needed it. But I knew what to do when I lost pressurization over the middle of the Atlantic and how to plan for it.
I guess it's just a different type of searching? To each his own? That's why Baskin Robbins has 31 flavors, chacun a son gout etc.Last edited by Flyin' Brian; 11-21-2014 at 11:58 AM.
-
One way to make sense out of this is to see it as a diminished scale function. Please pardon me if I'm breaking this down too far: Originally Posted by sambrooker
G7 half-whole diminished scale is G Ab Bb B C# D E F
E7 half-whole diminished scale is the same
From that viewpoint, the Killer Joe sequence is a perspective on I to Vdim. Just straight tonic and dominant. Nodding toward what JonR said, that's probably why it sounds good.
Brian, I respect all your contributions on the guitar sites. I smile when I see you around. Originally Posted by Flyin' Brian
Sometimes a little thinking opens a big door. When people are thoughtful in the shed but play in the moment on the stand, we glimpse the best of both worlds.
-
That's right. All that matters is that it sounds good. The theory just explains why it works possibly. That's all theory is. It's for after. Originally Posted by Flyin' Brian
As to why on the theory, Reg's example is is about as good as you could want. He's taking one idea that works , and analyzing the theory behind it, gives you several other options that will work in the same way . The theory justifies all those roads he's going down. Of course I don't understand half of it . I need to do my homework. :-)
-
No matter if you did not memorize it, you understood why the same ammount of fluid must leave as have entered.
I have no itention of memorizing all available extentions to all the chords in this example, although if repeated enough it will find the way to long term memory, but I want to understand what are they talking about, because it is public, meaning they are talking to public, me included.
I think I do understand a lot of it, but I wonder what makes one G7 a pivot? Is it because it is the V of only remotely related II-V progression and at the same time the back door caddence to original (very related) I, which is a bit tautological, or if maybe it is II-V that is pivot as a whole, while G7 is only one part of it, or something else?Last edited by Vladan; 11-21-2014 at 12:54 PM.
-
Just to add, OP's question was about I-bVII, why it works as such. It is not about what A7 - G7 could possibly be and why all those other possibilities work. I mean, I like reading about those, as well, but just for the sake of "strictly speaking".
-
Thanks Sam. I do understand that. Maybe I just have a lazy streak. I hated Boolean Algebra too. Originally Posted by Sam Sherry
-
No one needs to understand anything really... just play.
And when someone asks, do you know the tune...****** and you don't. Play a different tune.
Analysis of different tunes.... is also like knowing tunes, different analysis have and imply different changes and collections of notes and tonal references. If you have a great ear, sometimes you can fake your way through.... but generally your hanging on, somewhat reacting to the moment, rather than helping create that moment and where it's going.
If your a single line player, you can fake your way through with your ears much easier. But last time I checked ... we're rhythm section players. Resolving one note is simple... resolving wrong collections of notes... chords, generally sounds like wrong notes.
Ya want to play jazz... either know all the tunes or understand how they're put together..... I just prefer both approaches.
At gigs... generally I just play. Last night I put together six quick arrangements of some tunes... reflecting different analysis of original versions. Added changes and changes others... to reflect a different analysis. Changed some time sigs etc, had to redo some melodies to fit etc... make performing a lot more fun and entertaining.
Reply With Quote
Moffa Mithra
Today, 08:31 AM in For Sale