Major 251 Substitution Ideas

[Badge]

Greetings friends,

I am trying to put together a simple summary of different ideas for substitution over a major 251. A 'palette board' if you like. For use with chords/ comping primarily - although obviously it would also be useful for soloing (if I had the skills to do that!)

I want to run a simple progression like Autumn Leaves or Fly me to the Moon with various substitutions in various inversions/ drops to cement them.

I like the shortcut/ simplicity in paraphrasing a complex chord as a chord pseudonym (e.g. Cmaj9 = Emin) and would like to state this where possible.

I have put together the attachment. I would welcome any comments and also any additions that would make it a better resource.

Thank you!

[boatheelmusic]

So what does all this sound like?

And is it useful at 140 bpm or faster?

[Badge]

Sounds good. I'm not interested in speed

[Boston Joe]

Here are some of the subs I use (mostly the subs are on the V)

In C Major:

Dm7 - G7 - C

Dm7 - Bb7 - C

Dm7 - Db7 - C

Dm7 - A7 - C

Dm7 - Ab7 - C

Dm7b5 - G7 - C

Bm7b5 - E7 - A-7

Any of the chords can be extended or altered within their family. Usually, I use rootless voicings when comping.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I wouldn't have thought of A7 for G7, but go for it!

[Boston Joe]

I wouldn't have thought of A7 for G7, but go for it!

It's a pretty vanilla Lydian Dominant sound. If you raise the fifth of the G7, you get a whole tone scale chord, so you could substitute it with A7+, B7+, C#7+, D#7+, or F7+

[Reg]

So it's cool to organize, personally the trick is to be aware of the source, the starting reference from which your creating a relationship... like Boston Joe's source for using A7 for G7.

Subs can be looked at and heard as relationships which can be developed.

There can also be different references for the same Sub... Basically defining a reference is labeling the harmonic or melodic source or function.

Examples Diatonic subs... Tonic, Dominant, sub-dominant .

II-7... subs... IVma7
V7 ... subs... VII-7b5
Ima7.. subs... III-7, VI-7

So that could be the basic reference, then introduce Modal interchange...

So use the basic Modal Interchange or relative or parallel minor,

D-7 ... G7... Cma7

So if I use the relative minor of Cma7... or A-7, and use the II V of A-7... B-7b5 E7alt, now apply that new II V to original target of Cma7 .... B-7b5... E7alt... Cma7

So I'm using Diatonic Subs with Modal Interchange,

Using Parallel Minor Modal Interchange... Cmaj7 becomes C-7... D-7b5 G7alt C-7.

Everyone gets Tritone Subs, either with inverting the tritone or with root tritone swap, they both work and imply different possible organization.... But just using tritone subs with results from Diatonic subs creates choices, then with Modal interchange. Now start playing with modal and blue note organization... wow, there are a lot of choices for creating relationships and developing... developing ideas for your solos or composing.

So modal ideas can be as simple as using different modal organization for your choice of Diatonic subs.... The modal part is the organization behind the word Diatonic. The above examples were using Ionian... Boston Joe's example of source for A7 for G7 could be Modal... Using Whole Tone for organization of the notes to create function....maybe skip this concept for now. There are enough mechanical ideas above to usually keep most musicians busy.

Anyway understanding the source and organization of subs generally creates better improvisation, without years of trial and error, you know the beat it into your soul method most seem to like. (and all the other one liners).

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

It's a pretty vanilla Lydian Dominant sound. If you raise the fifth of the G7, you get a whole tone scale chord, so you could substitute it with A7+, B7+, C#7+, D#7+, or F7+

That's a reminder that I need to work more with the whole tone sound.

[soulbody]

No,a Lydian dominant sound its not related to augmented chords.
And a lot of subs are very bad sounding, i would only try the most common and forget all that mess.

[Boston Joe]

No,a Lydian dominant sound its not related to augmented chords.
And a lot of subs are very bad sounding, i would only try the most common and forget all that mess.

Apologies if I was confusing. The lydian dominant comment and the whole tone scale comment were two different ideas. And yes, many subs will sound bad in the wrong context. That's what your ears are for.

[Reg]

No,a Lydian dominant sound its not related to augmented chords.
And a lot of subs are very bad sounding, i would only try the most common and forget all that mess.

There are many relationships that you may not be aware of... but I think if you just think about it for a few moments, you might easily find a few.

Dom chords
augmented chords
whole tone chords

And yes a lot of subs sound very bad... but I hear straight changes, the notated chords sounding very bad all the time
maybe there's a relationship between sounding bad and the performance.

Only use the most common subs... and generally that's what your going to sound like.... common. Not good or bad, but generally not what playing Jazz is about.

[mr. beaumont]

The key to making subs sound good...or one of the keys at least, is understanding that the top note can almost always be heard as a melody.

[Reg]

The key to making subs sound good...or one of the keys at least, is understanding that the top note can almost always be heard as a melody.

That is what comping is almost always about... that lead note. What you do with it and what you voice below it. The goal isn't to try and not be heard.

The harmony is always implied, it's there. Most of my gigs are all about comping, the blanket for the head, solos... sometimes the comping of the rhythm section is enough. We generally are creating a counter melody, a groove melody or creating an effect from the harmony.

If your just playing the changes and you can't really feel it, and there's no lead line happening... why are you even playing.

If your trying not to get in the way...

Just lay out like most horn players, don't just fill up musical space.

Sorry, I don't mean to get uptight... but most guitarist sound like their somewhat on auto pilot... maybe asleep or something, your comping skills are much more important than your soloing skills. There are only a few guitarist that can hang onto gigs from being an incredible soloist... many guitarist loose gigs from not being able to lay down the changes.

Generally even if there is a pianist... you usually only get into the way because your not really playing anything.

Oh yea... this thread is really only about II V I's and subs. Sorry I think I got carried away...

Badge... I apologize... your concept about possible subs for II V I's is great... lets actually play through some examples,

I'll make a vid, (gotta cover for all my BS), and maybe this could become a working II V thread... not just verbal discussions of...

[eh6794]

Thats a cool chart. Thanks.

I've been working on different substitutions for soloing and comping. Im mixing more than one triad per chord for my soloing. A particular quick triad may add a brief change in feel to the music before it changes to something else or resolves. I play different things over a loop, then remember how things sounded.

I guess that was slight off topic!!!

[Badge]

I'll make a vid, (gotta cover for all my BS), and maybe this could become a working II V thread... not just verbal discussions of...

Thanks Reg, that really would be cool

[princeplanet]

What about subbing ii - V's from the m3rd "matrix", subbing from a min 3rd up (or down?) as well as TT (2 x m3rd)..?

[Reg]

Yea.. mechanical organization works, (worked for JC), there's is always a thin line when I personally use symmetrical patterns, I try and combine with something, either Blue notes, (works well with min3rds), or have something that works like a pedal to not get to far harmonically from tonal references.

Of course, sometimes that's the point.

There's really no end to use of subs... only our mind and ears.

[princeplanet]

Can't remember where I first read about the idea, but the m3rd sub thing may have only referred to just the m3rd up, not the m3rd down. The remaining m3rd is of course the TT and we know about that, nevertheless I made up a matrix of alternatives based on the idea along with the borrowed Min 2 -5 's and found that not only do these all resolve nicely to either CM or Cm, but any chord from the first stack can go to any chord from the second stack, hence offering 8x8 options. Yup, that's 64 just from this simple idea alone.

Does anyone know of a text that discusses this formally?
.
Dm7.............G7
Dm7(b5).......G7(b9)
Fm7.............Bb7
Fm7(b5).......Bb7(b9)
Abm7...........Db7
Abm7(b5).....Db7(b9)
Bm7.............E7
Bm7(b5).......E7(b9)

[soulbody]

two examples

order inversion(V-II-I)
G13-Dm9-C69
changing the V
Dm9-Ab13-C
Minor 3thing:
Bm11-E7#9-C6
Fm9-Bb6-Cmaj7
last
Bb69-Db9b5-C

etc..

a lot of possibilities
some sound better and others would not fit everywhere

[princeplanet]

two examples

order inversion(V-II-I)
G13-Dm9-C69
changing the V
Dm9-Ab13-C
Minor 3thing:
Bm11-E7#9-C6
Fm9-Bb6-Cmaj7
last
Bb69-Db9b5-C

etc..

a lot of possibilities
some sound better and others would not fit everywhere

Nice! Reminds me to add that from the matrix in post#18 you can jump from any chord in the first stack to any other in the same stack and bypass the V chord altogether (eg Dm7-Fm7-C). Of course the same is true for the second stack (eg Bb7 - Db7 - C).

Hard to just sub these anywhere, the existing melody may not accommodate them, but when composing your own tunes, anything goes, right?

[Reg]

Cool... but for all of those subs there are standard organization for deriving... when you use them what is the organization, not that it really matters. I'm really just interested in how you would solo through the changes....more than just playing the obvious notes. Is there a hierarchy which relates to the organization of deriving, constant structure, basic functional targets... or as I said who cares.

[princeplanet]

Cool... but for all of those subs there are standard organization for deriving... when you use them what is the organization, not that it really matters. I'm really just interested in how you would solo through the changes....more than just playing the obvious notes. Is there a hierarchy which relates to the organization of deriving, constant structure, basic functional targets... or as I said who cares.

Well I for one haven't spent much time on the whole m3rd sub thing and am happy to be pointed in the direction of more formal instruction. Any good books dealing with this? Until then, I'll just dabble with the "sound" of some of these and try to make sense of them in my own crude way (see below).

As for "heirachy", I know there are many levels of complexity, but am I missing much to just draw from the obvious mother keys? If I'm subbing Fm7-Bb7 in place of Dm7-G7, then I'm temporarily in Eb Major, so any diatonic non chord tones will pull from there I guess. If I mixed it up so I used, say, Fm7b5 - E7 , couldn't I think Eb minor as an underlying key for the first chord, and then either A major, or A minor for the next?

Of course I realise that Fm7b5 is actually G7b9b13, which opens many doors to other possibilities (AbMM etc), but I'd like to start out simple and just stick to the implied mother keys for these subs for now.

Oh, yeah, another sub I know of that doesn't belong in the matrix is the m6th sub - Bbm7 - Eb7. And another one that sounds cool (to me at least) is the M7th - Dbm7 - Gb7 . From here you begin to think all possible 12 ii - V 's are fair game, but the main 3 from the matrix as well as the other 2 just mentioned "sound" the most pleasing to my ears. Are there many other "heirachys" besides the obvious worth investigating for these?



. MINOR 3RD SUB MATRIX: ii - V




ii----------------V.....................................ii------------------------V


Dm7.............G7
Dm7(b5).......G7(b9)
Fm7.............Bb7............................F--Ab--C--E..............Bb..D..F…Ab
Fm7(b5).......Bb7(b9).....................F--Ab--B--E..............Bb…D..F…Ab……B
Abm7...........Db7...........................Ab--B--Eb-Gb............Db…F…Ab..B
Abm7(b5).....Db7(b9)....................Ab--B--D--Gb............Db..F…Ab..B……D
Bm7.............E7..............................B--D--F#--A..............E….G#..B..D
Bm7(b5).......E7(b9).......................B--D--F----A..............E….G#..B…D……F

[Reg]

I was just looking for your usage... There are lots of studies about interval based organization which can be used in a matrix... and also the organization of source of chords in the matrix.

And yes, personally with out the hierarchical systems of organization... the use tends to sound very mechanical etc..

And generally those systems of organization fill in the rest of the notes which would reflect the analysis and possible functional usage. The guideline for incorporating other harmonic applications.

All BS for what makes it sound natural... but the trick personally is not being in the moment where you simple bounce off what comes to mind... basically by chance reflecting where your at personally at the moment.

If you keep the matrix thing going and incorporate other possible organizational factors... I would think you would end up with plenty of organizational methods for use... which would reflect your personal choices.

I'll gladly share mine... but as you obviously know... going through the process is really what it's about.

[princeplanet]

Yeah, I'll fool around with this a little on the basic level and see what questions come up. I guess at some point ya gotta widen the palette to incorporate the harmonised scale from Dorian, MM etc, but my brain already hurts from just dealing with this stuff on the simpler levels....