The Double Sixteen-Bar Form

**Jonah** · 07-09-2014, 07:42 AM

Concept of Mr. Lyndon is quite clear.

But for myself I classify both as binary forms

/A/B/ in both cases

Let's pretend we have The way you look tonight and All of Me

By Mr. Lyndon
1) AABA - it shows 4 sections, and letters help us to identify the repeats
2) 'double 16 bars' - this more or less shows 2 sections

But if we look/or rather listen more carefully what is making difference here?
Where are the cadences which make the border line of form here?
In The way you look tonight
- we have 3 full cadences after each A, and on half-cadence with modulation after section B, so it looks like that we have 4 sections as the scheme above depicts
- but the second section is a reprise of the first
- and which is much more important the 2rd section starting in another key ends in modulation chord change back to the main key and 4th section... this seems to be very important for me because we can obviously hear in this case that so called B (3rd) section is strictly connected with the 4th, it cannot be separated from the 4th.
What is marked like BA from point of view of musical meaning of form is one entity, one section.
A here A is logical continuation and conclusion of B.
To me at least it is like this.

So /BA/ is one section

What about /AA/? - looks different but actually the same... what is the sence of repeating A?
Let us try to play the first A and then switch immediately to B (ABA three-section form is also quite pouplar song form - but not in american pop-music)... so what do we hear? Something is wrong, unfinished, unbalances uncomplete... clear why... it is like we said just a half sentence of the first phrase and jumped immediately to the second.
My idea that the repeart of A (in the firs part) here has absolutely the same function as the repeat of A in the seond part... it is the lodical continuation and conclution of the section, not actully a repeat.
What is repeated is the material - and it may be a bit confusing... and yes first section is more stable than the second, but these repeats and these sences of stability are already inside the sections.
My main feel of form is feel of the inside integrity and impossibility to split is without breaking the balance of the song.

But I can understand the logic of A/A/B/A scheme also - I can understand where it comes from... B here functions often deviation...

It is very interesting there is another type of binary form A/B - chorus/refrain - where refrain mostly have sence of 'all together now'. And in A/A/B/A it is absolutely on the contrary - B has mostly strong feel of solo voice against the A. And this scheme A/A/B/A reflects this special function of B in this form.
though to me it is more not to the form, but to the musical quality of material, this is already inside the form.

In the case of All of Me, the form is AB/AC.

Dear monk,

I would not classify it like this in this case.

I will explain why... I think the form should be defined by some distinctive muscal events - some border lines...
these song forms are rather simple and cadances here are the marks of the sections...

The melody line or phrasing repeated IMHO does not make a section in itself... so in All of Me there are only two section which have the same beginning.

**Jonah** · 07-09-2014, 08:00 AM

Before I got punished:

I know that in jazz 'form' letter identification is often used just indentify phrase or sentence, that is smaller parts of actual form... probably it comes from practical convinience of thinking during improvization.

But I think as many things in jazz theory the usage of the word 'form' more practical and partly ocassional here.
They do not identify form sections, they just identify mor or less integral parts of music and their repeats... in my opinion.

So "ABAC" in reference to song like 'All of Me' is not a form reflection but just identification of 8 bars sets with similar or different musical content... but what for? I do not see any special use in it - in All of me - in this case A will end interrupting the phrase right in between - what has it got to do with form?

**coolvinny** · 07-09-2014, 07:13 PM

I agree with Jonah. If a tune has lyrics (whether sung or as is usually the case in jazz, unsung), then I think those lyrics have got to determine how to best name the form.

**MarkRhodes** · 07-09-2014, 07:21 PM

What I liked about Michael Lydon's notion has to do with the feel of the songs he calls double sixteens.
This quote was cited by the OP but I think it bears repeating because I think some people may appreciate an aspect of that didn't fully register the first time:

>>>The best way to get a feel for the double-sixteen form is to play great songs in the form—Goody Goody, Bye, Bye, Blackbird, Fly Me To The Moon. You'll find, underneath their differences, a common loose, long-limbed quality. Instead of circling back all the time like AABAs, double-sixteens keep charging ahead—that's why jazzmen love to improvise on them, and that's why they suit optimistic, exuberant lyrics like 'when you're smiling, the whole world smiles with you.'<<< p.113

That "charging ahead" quality is the source of much of the appeal of these tunes. For me, anyway. I think that is the more important element of them, not whether someone calls them ABAC or whatever.

**paulkogut** · 07-09-2014, 07:42 PM

While we can debate what's more useful and/or correct to call a tune with 'two halves' and not come to an agreement, there are a few things in his examples I can't overlook. Bye Bye Blackbird is anything but a 'two halves' tune, it's AABA or ABCA' or something, but not ABAC or 'double sixteen' by any stretch. And while Goody Goody is at least 'two halves', the last phrase is 12 bars instead of 8, for a total of a 36 bar form, so that really muddies up the waters in a conversation about 'double sixteens'.

PK

**Jonah** · 07-10-2014, 12:35 AM

I agree with Jonah. If a tune has lyrics (whether sung or as is usually the case in jazz, unsung), then I think those lyrics have got to determine how to best name the form.

Actually I meant music, but I agree that in a good song you can hear just music ang get a meaning that lyrics brings...
on various levels

What I liked about Michael Lydon's notion has to do with the feel of the songs he calls double sixteens.
This quote was cited by the OP but I think it bears repeating because I think some people may appreciate an aspect of that didn't fully register the first time:

>>>The best way to get a feel for the double-sixteen form is to play great songs in the form—Goody Goody, Bye, Bye, Blackbird, Fly Me To The Moon. You'll find, underneath their differences, a common loose, long-limbed quality. Instead of circling back all the time like AABAs, double-sixteens keep charging ahead—that's why jazzmen love to improvise on them, and that's why they suit optimistic, exuberant lyrics like 'when you're smiling, the whole world smiles with you.'<<< p.113

That "charging ahead" quality is the source of much of the appeal of these tunes. For me, anyway. I think that is the more important element of them, not whether someone calls them ABAC or whatever.

For it is also a good explanation... after all form helps us to perform correctly, to catch the length of breath, motion... this is not about mechanical constructional principle, form is one of the most important element of any art. This is about a feel of proportion.

Byt the way, perception changes - for a long time I felt AABA as a 4-section form.. it made sence for me - but in time my perception moved somehow to 2-section as I described before... it became more important for me to see a song like this, more important for musical meaning. So agreement is not necessary - just conversation moves us on))) Like Plato)

I would loke suggest an interesting sample for song form:

Lennon's 'I'll Be Back" from A Hard Day's Night LP - What do you think? I frankly cannot say for sure

**Jonah** · 07-10-2014, 02:51 AM

While we can debate what's more useful and/or correct to call a tune with 'two halves' and not come to an agreement, there are a few things in his examples I can't overlook. Bye Bye Blackbird is anything but a 'two halves' tune, it's AABA or ABCA' or something, but not ABAC or 'double sixteen' by any stretch. And while Goody Goody is at least 'two halves', the last phrase is 12 bars instead of 8, for a total of a 36 bar form, so that really muddies up the waters in a conversation about 'double sixteens'.

Dear paulkogut,

regarding agreement I strongly believe that in many cases it is not necessary to make strict definitions, to get the feel of it and to render it might be quite enough... for definitions is one of the most obscure topic in muscology, but music it not physics and I see no sence of strict definitions, just a supportive the feel of it...
Besides I noticed that usual terms and classification may be different in various countries.. so I suggest mostly to go from our feel of music, not from definitions.

In Mr. Lyndon's definition a reference to the quantity of bars seems not necessary to me... I think for is about feel of proportion in a song, but this feel is not always estimated by quantity of bars... of course 32 bars is very regular... but not significant. So here I agree with it misleads

But about the songs - it looks to me (in my huble, humblest, humblissimus opinion) that both songs are just AB - binary form.

Bye-Bye Blackburd

First section A

It consists of two 'sentences' - the first with half-cadence, the second is full cadence.
Each sentce distinctly consists of contrast phrases
I refer to lyrics just to identify these musical phrases (I do not discuss lyrics here):

A section

1 sentence

1 phrase

Pack up all my care and woe Here I go, singing low
2 phrase
Bye-bye, blackbird (half - cadence)

2 sentence
1 phrase
Where somebody waits for me
Sugar's sweet and so is he

2 phrase
Bye, bye, blackbird (full cadence)

The melodic material is the same in both sentences - the difference in harmonic solution.
The melodic solution here reminds I can't give you anything but love - but in that it is more standard, and in Blackbird it is like more extended, there are discending melodic sequences inserted inside (here i go, singing low)... that gives this song a very special feel.
It gives a relaxed effect as if a singer withdraws gradually... goes deeper in his thoughts, soul....

B section

Actually it is the same in cinstruction as previous one, even melodic material is the same.

1 sentence also includes only 2 phrases
(I refer two lyrics again meaning music)
1 phrase

No one here can love and understand me

2 phrase
Oh, what hard-luck stories they all hand me

But if we look we will see that each phrase in material consits of what was two phrases in the A section/
the prases here are not melodicaly extended!!! - and composer like puts twice as much material in the same quantity of bars as he did in th A section.

Harmonically it is unstable, deviative

2 sentence

prectically repeats the 2 sentence of the A section, bringing back a feel of extension and at the same time harmonic stability and conclusion.

So what do we have here?

A very interesting sample... as I said previously I do not clasify AABA as a special form for myself, considering to be just a variation of AB...

so here we have a subtle mixture of two variations of AB form - in proportion of a whole song it looks close to simple AB form (as in All of me for example), but the harmonic development and melodic material is used in way that gives us a feel that 1st sentence of the B section is bigger than it really is in quantity of bars and since it is more intesive and dense it gives also backward effect, it seems that A section is also longer than it is - and brings a feel of what I would call an AABA variation AB form.

So for me it is definitely AB - but what is going inside is very intereisting and really not necessary to try to define, just to catch a feel of this ambiguity..

**Reg** · 07-10-2014, 07:52 AM

Mannnn..... get past the structural analysis BS which is all good, but Form is not just compositional organization ....from lead sheet analysis , or harmonic organization of melodic construction. With Jazz.... the lead sheet is not the only aspect. One of the basic aspects of improve is call and answer spatial organization. A... B or how ever you want to label. The 16 bar reference is just a numbers game, could be double 8, 32... whatever. The the two part Form concept is very useful and fairly standard approach to playing.... 32 bar tunes.

When you get past the learning process... which ever method you choose, you eventually know the tune and the possible approaches of organizing the overall length of the tune. Don't get hung up on classical formal analysis concepts as being the only method of approaching jazz, performance and analysis.... that's what you'll sound like. All the usual disclaimer BS.

Try playing the tunes with both approaches ABAC and 16 -16. Then try some different spatial approaches, you might learn something. If it doesn't work for you, maybe your missing something.

Jonah... I like your binary concept.

**Jonah** · 07-11-2014, 07:18 AM

I think concept is concept... good for it.

but there is always a feel of proportion of parts and total piece... so only this feel matters, we should trust it.
Then we can evaluate concepts to help us to organize this feel, to develope, control and investigate it.

Other people concepts might be useful to try, maybe they will open something... but if not, then not. Should I care about it?

but to go in certain song and get into and see how it works in it... I like it best of all.... not concept, but start with my feel...

It is like you meet a guy - you do not approach him with a concept you just let your feelings capture this personatlity from how he expresses it...

For me it is like speaking about nation which might be interesting, and a certain guy with his own life, name, love...

In comparison to person 'nation context' becomes so general and impersonal... and boring... and frankly non-existant.

that is why I like geting into certain song.. and just see how it works there. it is fun for me to discover its possibilities.

For me good song is a person with its special features and soul - so when I play it I want to make this soul live longer... and when I play good impro it is like a song responds me... to get such a response I really have to now it good...

Good analysis of music - honest not to concepts but to my perseption of it - is my respect for music.

**Reg** · 07-11-2014, 10:19 AM

Hey Jonah, where do all these feelings come from?

**Jonah** · 07-12-2014, 01:01 AM

Why?

**Reg** · 07-12-2014, 10:26 AM

Just wondering if your feelings change. Many of your musical as well as general life analogies about music.... from what I read from your posts seem to be reactions from feelings. Not good or bad, who am I to say. But generally feel or feelings come from somewhere, what you had for lunch, what you experienced back in college, two week gig somewhere good or bad...

Sorry, my point is I agree with some and enjoy your posts, But when your explanation of what or why something...
"is what it is" , comes from a feeling, it is very difficult to understand. I'm just talking about Music, and in this case, the organization and concept from which the "form"... and performance of music... might be related.

Form in Music and Form of music

The double-sixteen is simply an explanation of The Form of Music, a basic guideline that covers the over-all structure of the tune. Very independent from the Form in the Music. The Form in the Music being all the theoretical and compositional principles etc...

**Jonah** · 07-12-2014, 12:39 PM

sure feelings change...

Your know there is a story about Leo Tolstoy: when some admirer of him came to visit him and they had a good breakfast and during breakfast Tolstoy praised some writer ... then the day past they had a good dinner and suddenly Tolstoy began to curse the same writer he had praised in the morning... his admirer listend for a while and asked: But Mr. Tolstoy in morening you praised him so much and now...? Tolstoy looked at him and answered: Young man, what am I? A nightingale? To sing the same all the time?

My explanations comes from how I percieve - this is before I analyse or whatever else....
but there are always explained with some concept. Because I try to be conventional

I do not explain just 'this is what I feel', but I just insist that I come from what I feel - this is difference...
In this thread I did get into analysis of certain song and I did analyse using a concept.
All I did was trying to show why I think that AB concept is more essential in concern of song form here.
It seems to me I was quite exaustive - but maybe nobody here iteresetd in it, and be nobody relly reads it...

I consider theory as not as something separate from practice, there is not just theory (maybe there for some musicologist - but not for me) - and no matter if it is jazz or classical music.. concepts in mys understand describe in conventional way some priciples of music, principle that exisit in real practice - pieces, songs, recordings, preformances etc.

Concepts are conventions and generalization.. there are always wrong though a bit to real practice, but it is ok if we undestand this conventionality because there is always something more in practical music that is missed in concepots.

All I did in this thread was taking a Bye Bye Blackbied and analysed its original form, when you judge I did it from lead sheet I think you are wrong... I analyzed from all the experience I had with it... the perfomances of singers or jazz players first of all.. And I think that alysis I did was quite interesting - it really describes some important thisngs in song strcucture and these things are a part of expressive power of this song... and getting to know this things will deffinitely help much more in jazz performnance so I do not see what is the problem in saying that I doubt that this or that concept is useful? and explain why? This is only my opinion, one can agree, or not... but to have a dialog we should try to explain, which I did.

Now i do not get the maning of this your passage

Form in Music and Form of music

The double-sixteen is simply an explanation of The Form of Music, a basic guideline that covers the over-all structure of the tune. Very independent from the Form in the Music. The Form in the Music being all the theoretical and compositional principles etc...

Form in the music is not the theoretical principle, form is what makes us feel what we feel when we hear this music, this song... 'double-sixteen' is as theoretical as and as practical as any other form notions...

Please, also check my post #27 in this thread it was actually preventive to your coming in

**Reg** · 07-12-2014, 06:26 PM

Hey Jonah, thanks for reply... I reread your posts and the last post again. We hear, feel and understand music very differently. That's probably a good thing.

Reg