Polychords Subs Question

[edh]

How many of you use polychords as substitutions for other chords when comping or improvising?

Are they common usage for you?

Thanks
edh

[cosmic gumbo]

Is polychord even a commonly recognized term among most guitarists, or is there some other term? I was taught it was a pianistic or arranging term for stacking 2 or more triads in a voicing. That seems like a very limited concept for guitar, using prior definition.

[Reg]

Poly as compared to slash... Chord over chord...or chord over root. Some use for spelling voicings. I see them all the time. Don't really use except for effect or camouflage of root motion.

Can be very thick and don't leave much room.

[docbop]

When I was playing in big bands and rehearsal band I'd see polychord's a bit, because a lot of the rhythm charts were a master rhythm or a copy of the piano part. So I got into figuring out the common polychords so I know what chord they were after. But in a read situation I would usually just play the upper triad and bass note of lower if I could grab it.

[edh]

Great responses! This is what I was after. What I wanted to know is whether it was worth my time learning them, and if it is worth my time where could I learn them.

Keep the responses coming.

[JensL]

As for the stacking triads type of poly chords, I agree with Reg: mostly for effects and fireworks

It can be worthwhile to have a few voicings where you have a reduced version of the chords that still hold the essence of what is going on?

Jens

[Paultergeist]

Poly as compared to slash... Chord over chord...or chord over root......

I am trying to follow along, but I am slightly confused......IS a chord over root (i.e. "slash chord") considered a polychord?

Thanks....

[henryrobinett]

Slash chords certainly imply polychords and in a sense therefore are, but strictly speaking probably not. But in effect, yes they are polychords. How's that for covering all your bases?

[jasaco]

I am trying to follow along, but I am slightly confused......IS a chord over root (i.e. "slash chord") considered a polychord?

No, as I understand it, it is not. Technically a polychord is one chord (triad or more) superimposed on top of another chord (triad or more, but in practice, usually a 4-note seventh chord). Thus you could call for a DMajor triad to be stacked on top of a C7 chord (which would add up to a C9,#11,13). That's not the same as just playing a DMajor triad over a C bass. You wouldn't have the major 3rd (E), or the 5th (G), or the b7 (Bb). In fact, you'd really have a D7 inversion with the b7 in the bass.

(But I'm perfectly willing to be taken to school by Henry or other more experienced and educated folks here...)

[Paultergeist]

Thanks for the replies. I had to get that "first question post" out of the way without looking too dumb.

If a more typical implementation of a polychord involves an instrument such as a piano -- which can more easily play two triads simultaneously -- perhaps that is why guitarists may be less-familiar with the term? (Polychords less common in the guitar world?)

As for myself, I am lucky if I can consistently get one triad played in the right key and at the right time -- let alone add an extension.......

[paulkogut]

I get a lot of mileage out of using a triad over a bass note, counting on the bassist to put it in context.

example. Bb triad/B , with the bassist playing G for a G7#9 sound. There's lots of these structures available with triads and 3-part fourth voicings if you look for them.

PK

[bako]

A large vocabulary of nuanced six string chords is challenging at best given the limits of reach and four fingers.

One work around to address the note collections of poly-chords is to view multiple triad over bass structures as familial fragments that collectively and or individually can imply aspects of the intended harmonic color.

D
C = D/C and D/E and D/G

Another idea is to play 2 notes from each chord

D
C = CEAD and EGDF# and GCF#A or CGAF# and ECDA and GEF#D

Same idea but juxtaposing notes from each triad

D
C = CF#GD and EACF# and GDEA or CF#AE and EADG and GDF#C

[Reg]

Yea to all above... it's not like there is a ton of historical reference, with jazz applications, and then get into the notational thing. But as I should have said.... slash chords are generally triad over a bass note.

Sometimes a lazy method of notating where the chord structure is from harmonically. How to imply the source for complete harmonic note collection, the implied scale or complete arpeggio... how ever one whats to spell or call that collection of notes. So easier notation, harmonic reference or sometimes just a common inversion.

Polychords can get fairly complex. Stravinsky's use of different keys or modes. But generally in jazz again it's a notational thing usually.... how to imply a chordal sound that's different from typical voicings... without actually notating it out, and leaving the freedom for possibilities... improve from the notation. Can be triads or 7th chords... after that, somewhat looses the effect or reference. Any 7th chord could be called a polychord... Bb7 could be Bb triad and a D dim. triad. Just continue with same principle but with more complex applications... You can easily see why Henry's answer was what it was. There is really no one complete answer.

But generally.... it's a notational method of implying something. Many composers use a slash for both, some use a horizontal line between the two chords, the two chords are vertically stacked.

Usually a way to imply a camouflaged simple chordal structure and create a more complex sound.

[targuit]

I tend to agree with Reg and other commentators above on polychords. I'm sure you could find a good Wikipedia definition. I'll try to check later, but I don't play much Stravinsky on guitar, so I don't tend to think much about them.

When I see a chord like Gm7/Bb, I tend to think of the Bb as the preferred bass note. Pat Metheny uses the slash in this manner in his "PM Songbook". From a reading pov, that is not too difficult. But, I prefer to see that Bb also clearly notated on the sheet music as well. To me it also about voice-leading as well.

Edit - Brief visit to Wiki and back. In fact, a polychord is ...ready...two chords stacked. As in Stravinsky's Rite of Spring or the Petrushka chord. But, something I had forgotten, the notation is not the slash but a horizontal line, like division, with the two chords as numerator and denominator. This is different from the use of the slash to indicate a voice leading bass note.

[Reg]

As confirmed by Wiki leaks...
Over the years, at gigs, studio etc... I've seen very few, as I said and confirmed.... horizontal line usage for polychords. Most pianist generally use slash, and you can really only tell the difference notationally....between Slash and polychords by use of 7th chords, or some common examples...Gmaj over Fmaj for no 7th or C- over G- again for no 7th.

D7sus over C-7, for camouflage modal sound, ambiguous.
D-7 over C7, sometimes used as last chord

Bb over D7 to Ab over D to Bb over D7 and the to Gmi13 just a different V I

There are many more, but that should give examples to help.

[edh]

@bako, thanks for your post.

@targuit and Reg, thanks for clarifying the use of the "/" vs. the use of the "-" in a chord.

Another question...because they are not common chords and therefore not studied in depth. If you run across one and do not have the time to sus it out. Which chord would you play?. The top or the bottom chord.

Thanks to all responses.
edh

[targuit]

EDH - in the case of a 'true' polychord you might be hard pressed to play it properly on guitar as two chords simultaneously require six notes or more, unless I am mistaken. On the other hand, in the case of the Cm11/Bb type (slash) notation, you would play the Cm11 with the bass note as Bb. The latter situation is much more common in guitar and jazz music on the whole than true polychords.

Of course, others might disagree with my opinion there. In addition, I recall years ago reading about Larry Carlton's theories about superposition of chords, though I really don't recall the details. But that stuff gets unnecessarily 'complicated' to me.

[bako]

On guitar, it is our day to day reality to make decisions about what notes to omit.
Take for example the most generic G13 voicing: G X F B E X
It contains 4 notes of a conceptual 7 note structure.
Implying sounds with fewer notes is what we do.

[Reg]

Great point bako... that's what we do.

Rule of thumb... as targuit said, play top chord.

The trick is to be aware of what the chords are implying, is there a line cliche, a chord pattern, a voicing what's the reason for the notation.

EX. Cmi / Fmi / D-7b5 / Fmi/G / going Cmi.

So you know there's a II V of some sort going on, so that F-/G is some type of V7 chord going to C-, a target I chord.

That slash chord is generally a voicing of V7sus b9 chord.

Where or how was the chord derived, is the chord derived or pulled from,

1) Eb maj or relative Cmin. .....from Phrygian or third mode of Ebmaj'
2) C harmonic min. .....just G7 or the V7 with b9 and b13 and nat. 5th
3) FMM ........is the chord constructed from the second degree

So anyway... as always you need to check out the melody and all the clues the rest of the chart tells you. Chord notation always implies more than just the chord tones.

G- / G-/F# / G-/F / G-/E... is generally Line cliche or A-/E / A-/F / A-/F# / A-/G

The point... generally with comping, jazz players don't just play the chord notated, we create chord patterns, tunes within tunes. So really covering what's notated is generally not the problem, it covering what's implied by the notation.