Bmb5 ? E7#5#9 ? Correct Names?

[6stringlust]

The two chords above are on a chart and I need to learn the shapes. (I'm a blues, faux jazz, I-IV-V type player and unschooled) I looked for them on line with little success, hence a couple of questions:

1. Bmb5 came up as a diminished chord. Is there really a chord by this name (Bmb5) or does it go by another name? If so, what is it called and whats its spelling? (xxxxxx ?)

2. This E7 with two sharps came up as E7#9. Is the E7#9 the same as E7#5#9 somehow? If not, How do I play the E7#5#9 ?

I will appreciate your help with this. Thanks!

[Phil in London]

hi, Bmb5 will quite likely be Bm7b5, which would give B D F A. Check if you are in Amin, e.g. with a sequence of Bm7b5 E7 Amin, then this would be confirmed.

E7#9 is not necessarily the same as E7#5#9. Both are dom7 chords, but the latter has an augmented 5, in addition to the aug9.

The first chord is played e.g. like this: x7678x

if you add the #5, then it would be x76788

cheerio

[monk]

While there is a chord called Bm7b5 there is no such chord as Bmb5.

If you flat the fifth of a minor triad the result is a diminished triad.

[eh6794]

Technically when you flat the 5, you have a diminished chord. So the Bmb5 is diminished, but I think you meant to write Bbm7b5. That's a common chord which is also called a half diminished.

A common shape on the guitar is (from low E to high E:
X 1 2 1 2 X
Bb, Fb, Ab, Db

The E7#5#9 is an augmented chord:

X 7 6 7 8 8
E, Ab, D, G, C

[monk]

The E7#5#9 is an augmented chord:

X 7 6 7 8 8
E, Ab, D, G, C

E7#9#5 is spelled E G# D G C

There is no Ab in the chord.

[eh6794]

This is how you figure out chords.

Take a major scale, then give a number to each note:
C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C is 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8

Using the C scale, get on your guitar and figure out what that shape looks like when you start on tge 6th string at C, and the 5th string at C.

When you have a major chord like Cmaj7, the chord will be 1, 3, 5, 7 of that scale. C6/9, would be 1, 3, 5, 6, 9

A minor chord would be the above C major scale but with the flat 3rd. For Cminor7, it would be 1, B3, 5 , b7 or C, Eb, G, Bb. Youre flatting the 7th in a minor 7, dont forget.

The third type of chord is a Dominant chord. C7 is 1, 3, 5, b7 or C, E, G, Bb

Now, when you see a b5, #5, b9, #9 or any other combination, you take that scale degree and either flat ir sharp it just like it says.

Figure out what the C major scale looks like in the neck, then move it up and down for the other keys

[edh]

eh6794, what does B9

[eh6794]

Spellchecker doesn't like these. b9

[bako]

E7#9#5 is spelled E G# D G C There is no Ab in the chord.

Monk,

Not my intention to sidetrack this conversation or add a new layer of confusion
especially because the original question has been answered and I would spell this chord just as you did.....but

according to the intervals of the chord symbol E7#9#5

1 3 #5 b7 #9 --- E G# B# D Fx

spelled as E G# C D technically is E7b13 which is how it derives from the altered scale.

Personally I have avoided double flats and sharps ever since my last theory exam.
B#, E#, Cb, Fb depends on the individual situation and my mood.

technically correct #9 spellings

C - D# // C# - Dx // Db - E // D - E# // D# - Ex // Eb - F# // E - Fx // F - G# // F# - Gx

G - A# // G# - Ax // Ab - B // A - B# // A# - Bx // Bb - C# // B - Cx

It is pretty rare to see #9 chords spelled as above. Most often it appears as a b3.
I think of the blues scale as the introductory source of #9 in jazz (someone correct me if I'm wrong on this).
In any case this provides a rationale for the spelling we mostly use for #9

C - Eb // C# - E // Db - E **// D - F // D# - F# // Eb - Gb // E - G // F - Ab // F# - A

G - Bb // G# - B // Ab - B **// A - C // A# - C# // Bb - Db // B - D

avoiding Fb and Cb

7 letters for 12 notes. It's a system that is bound to break down somewhere.
My basic strategy is that simplicity and clarity wins over being technically correct but I want to make decisions
from a position of knowledge.

The short story:

As Monk says E G# D G C

[monk]

Monk,

Not my intention to sidetrack this conversation or add a new layer of confusion
especially because the original question has been answered and I would spell this chord just as you did.....but

according to the intervals of the chord symbol E7#9#5

1 3 #5 b7 #9 --- E G# B# D Fx

spelled as E G# C D technically is E7b13 which is how it derives from the altered scale.

Personally I have avoided double flats and sharps ever since my last theory exam.
B#, E#, Cb, Fb depends on the individual situation and my mood.

technically correct #9 spellings

C - D# // C# - Dx // Db - E // D - E# // D# - Ex // Eb - F# // E - Fx // F - G# // F# - Gx

G - A# // G# - Ax // Ab - B // A - B# // A# - Bx // Bb - C# // B - Cx

It is pretty rare to see #9 chords spelled as above. Most often it appears as a b3.
I think of the blues scale as the introductory source of #9 in jazz (someone correct me if I'm wrong on this).
In any case this provides a rationale for the spelling we mostly use for #9

C - Eb // C# - E // Db - E **// D - F // D# - F# // Eb - Gb // E - G // F - Ab // F# - A

G - Bb // G# - B // Ab - B **// A - C // A# - C# // Bb - Db // B - D

avoiding Fb and Cb

7 letters for 12 notes. It's a system that is bound to break down somewhere.
My basic strategy is that simplicity and clarity wins over being technically correct but I want to make decisions
from a position of knowledge.

The short story:

As Monk says E G# D G C

bako,
You're absolutely correct. I was focused on pointing out the the third of an E7 chord is G#, not Ab and dropped the ball completely regarding the #5 and #9. They are, as you pointed out, B# and Fx. Like you, I tend toward simplicity and clarity but you're correct that we should all know the correct technical terms even if we tend to take "shortcuts" when discussing them.

Regards,
Jerome

[Phil in London]

bako,
You're absolutely correct. I was focused on pointing out the the third of an E7 chord is G#, not Ab and dropped the ball completely regarding the #5 and #9. They are, as you pointed out, B# and Fx. Like you, I tend toward simplicity and clarity but you're correct that we should all know the correct technical terms even if we tend to take "shortcuts" when discussing them.

Regards,
Jerome

Once one begins to simplify notation (which may be quite appropriate), the Q is where to stop. I agree with you that E G# is better than E Ab, there is no reason for 'simplifying' a major 3rd into a diminished 4th in a triad. With the extensions it seems more a matter of taste.

[bako]

Once one begins to simplify notation (which may be quite appropriate), the Q is where to stop. I agree with you that E G# is better than E Ab, there is no reason for 'simplifying' a major 3rd into a diminished 4th in a triad. With the extensions it seems more a matter of taste.

Reg has astutely pointed out many times that 7+ or 7#5 is really 7b13 and b5 sometimes really #11 when drawn from their most common scale contexts. It is an inconsistent world we navigate yet music continues to be made.

[Phil in London]

Reg has astutely pointed out many times that 7+ or 7#5 is really 7b13 and b5 sometimes really #11 when drawn from their most common scale contexts. It is an inconsistent world we navigate yet music continues to be made.

Agree. I was referring to the major 3rd, not to the 5ths etc that you enumerate.

[6stringlust]

Hello all... THANKS MUCH for all of your excellent responses! Its just amazing how much talent there is out there.

Best regards to all!
6stringlust...

[Phil in London]

6stringlust, you can see, enharmonic change in music is sometimes similarly creative as in this chemistry example:

[A. Kingstone]

We call these chords Minor Seventh Flat Five or Half Diminished these days.

Thelonious Monk called it "a minor with the sixth in the bass".

Bm7b5 = Dm with B in the bass.

Barry Harris reminds us that Bm7b5 is built on the 3rd degree of G7.

[Mark M.]

We call these chords Minor Seventh Flat Five or Half Diminished these days.

Thelonious Monk called it "a minor with the sixth in the bass".

Bm7b5 = Dm with B in the bass.

Barry Harris reminds us that Bm7b5 is built on the 3rd degree of G7.

Alan, I have to tell you that your Barry Harris harmonic method book is the most useful book I have studied in a long, long time.

[A. Kingstone]

Alan, I have to tell you that your Barry Harris harmonic method book is the most useful book I have studied in a long, long time.

Mark: That's great to hear. I'm glad you're finding the book helpful. Barry's teachings are so simple and yet so vast. Remember the trick to improvising harmonically with this method is taking the chords we know and plugging in the suitable Sixth Chord Scales.

Alan

[Mark M.]

Mark: That's great to hear. I'm glad you're finding the book helpful. Barry's teachings are so simple and yet so vast. Remember the trick to improvising harmonically with this method is taking the chords we know and plugging in the suitable Sixth Chord Scales.

Alan

Absolutely, and I'm hearing a difference in my lines. I learned the Sixth Chord Scales as "Be Bop Scales" years ago, and though they were useful then I didn't realize their full potential. They were always explained as a way to keep the chord tones on the strong beats by adding the additional note. While that is one function, they also open up a whole harmonic world, as you illustrate in the book. Harmony was really a static element for me until I read your book.