Is C+7#9 the same as C7#5#9?

[AlsoRan]

I am working on Moanin' and the lead sheet calls for a C+7#9. Both this chord and the C7#5#9 both contain that "#5" but I am not sure if they are the same chord.

It seems to be a C7#5#9 could potentially have both a natural 5th and a sharp 5th.

So confused...

[mr. beaumont]

Same.

i hate chords notated the first way.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

And C7#5#9 doesn't have a natural 5 as well. It is C E G# Bb D#, for example x32344.

If you wanted G and G# in the same chord, I would call it C7#9(add b6).

[henryrobinett]

Yes.

[randalljazz]

C7#9b13

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

C7#9b13

I'm okay with that but I wanted to avoid the whole "11th yea or nay" thing.

[AlsoRan]

I know that naming and notating chords is not an exact science.

So I am concluding from your different inputs that while you can leave the perfect 5th in, by convention it is probably best to leave it out so that you can get that #5#9 sound on the C7.

Of course, as you folks have taught me through the years, I can alter the chord to my taste, but here I was just trying to determine what the author of the sheet music was going for.


Thanks very much!

[Jim Soloway]

I know that naming and notating chords is not an exact science.

So I am concluding from your different inputs that while you can leave the perfect 5th in, by convention it is probably best to leave it out so that you can get that #5#9 sound on the C7.

Of course, as you folks have taught me through the years, I can alter the chord to my taste, but here I was just trying to determine what the author of the sheet music was going for.


Thanks very much!

It may not be an exact science but I always assume that you can never have two different versions of the same degree of the scale (i.e. if you have a #5, you cannot also have a natural 5, at least by that name).

[bako]

3 examples of 5 and b13 in the same scale

1 2 3 4 5 b6 b7

1 b2 3 4 5 b6 b7

1 b2 b3 b4 5 b6 b7

[Jim Soloway]

3 examples of 5 and b13 in the same scale

1 2 3 4 5 b6 b7

1 b2 3 4 5 b6 b7

1 b2 b3 b4 5 b6 b7

I don't know if that's intended as a response to my post but if so, I would just note that in these examples, it's notated as a b6, not a#5.

[edh]

Would a chord notation as C7alt#9 be the same chord?

[mr. beaumont]

Alt. Already implies #9.

[edh]

Mr. B, so when the chord is C7alt. is that a #9 or #5?

Thanks in advance.

[AlsoRan]

Here is an interesting article on altered chords in Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altered_chord

I have read in more than one place that with the "Alt" written after a dominant 7chord, you can alter either the ninth or the fifth to your taste.

But I realized I had better not be giving out too much Jazz advice at this point in my Jazz studies.

Sometimes my sources are wrong, or I have a senior moment.

[mr. beaumont]

Mr. B, so when the chord is C7alt. is that a #9 or #5?

Thanks in advance.

Alt. In jazz means if there's a 5th or 9th in the voicing you pick, they are altered, either b or # or both.

Alt. On a chart means 'use your ears' discretion.

generally, if a alteration is specifically wanted it's called for...so C7#5#9 is a specific "altered" chord.

So if I see "alt" I know the altered scale will work over that chord. It implies that. As far as choosing a voicing for comping, context, voice leading, and my ear guide that choice.

[bako]

Jim,

Not specifically a response to your post, but in sync with what you were saying

[JonR]

Here is an interesting article on altered chords in Wikipedia. Altered chord - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I have read in more than one place that with the "Alt" written after a dominant 7chord, you can alter either the ninth or the fifth to your taste.

Yes.
More precisely, alter both (either way), or leave them out. Ie, don't include an unaltered 5th or 9th.

As Jeff says, context and ear decide. Voice moves between chords either side would be a prime consideration, IMO.

[add4]

I thought Alt. called for #4 too? is that plainly wrong?

[Phil in London]

@Add4 - #4 here would better be written as -5 (which is enharmonically identical). The chord is a dom7 chord, so it's got root, maj 3, 5th (-/+), 7, and 9 (-/+). To involve a +4 is in the result not wrong, but blurs the simple build up in thirds.

[JonR]

I thought Alt. called for #4 too? is that plainly wrong?

It's wrong in the sense that "#4" in a symbol implies a perfect 5th, which an altered chord/scale doesn't have. But of course it's the same sound as a b5.

It's important not to confuse a "7#4" (or 7#11) chord with an altered dominant.
7#11 (occasionally written as 7#4) is specifically lydian dominant, a very different chord - it's related to altered, but as the tritone sub.
Eg, C7#11 is tritone sub for F#7alt. The scale (the collection of notes which could provide chord extensions) is the same, enharmonic with the G melodic minor scale. Either chord resolves - conventionally - to Bm or B (but not to F or Fm).
So to think of C7#11 as potentially a C altered chord (or a C HW dim chord) is wrong. Chord symbols - in this case at least - are quite precise.
A good tip is that a 7#11 is rarely used as a V chord. It's usually bII or bVII; in both cases, lydian dominant is going to be the appropriate scale.

The chord tones of a 7#11 do all occur in the HW dim scale, so there might be an argument for that if the chord is being used as a V (because HW dim makes a good V7 scale). But that's only if it's 7#11, and not 9#11 or 13#11, which are 100% lydian dominant. HW dim is usually indicated by 7b9 (and 13b9 will specify it exclusively).

IOW, while there is some flexibility, some symbols are specific, and context (chord function, or melody) usually helps clarify.

[bako]

Sometimes more than one scale is being implied in a chordal sequence.

This example moves through 3 scales on the C dominant.

X X F Bb D A --- X X F# Bb D A --- X X F C D Bb --- X E Bb Eb Ab Db --- | --- X F A D G C --- ||

[Phil in London]

It's important not to confuse a "7#4" (or 7#11) chord with an altered dominant.
7#11 (occasionally written as 7#4) is specifically lydian dominant, a very different chord - it's related to altered, but as the tritone sub.
Eg, C7#11 is tritone sub for F#7alt. The scale (the collection of notes which could provide chord extensions) is the same, enharmonic with the G melodic minor scale. Either chord resolves - conventionally - to Bm or B (but not to F or Fm).
So to think of C7#11 as potentially a C altered chord (or a C HW dim chord) is wrong. Chord symbols - in this case at least - are quite precise.
A good tip is that a 7#11 is rarely used as a V chord. It's usually bII or bVII; in both cases, lydian dominant is going to be the appropriate scale.

Agreed, sometimes a 7#11 chord might indicate the use of both a tritone and a 5th, and thus exhibit a lydian element.

However, while there is in theory a functional distinction between lydian-dominant and 'real' dominant (particularly when looking at scales), in chord voicings the differentiation is, from a functional perspective, rather marginal. Alt7 and 7#11 have different colours, no doubt, but they are very much related, since F#7Alt (using -5, -9) is an inversion of C7#11 and vice versa.

In my opinion, both chord types can be used both in a dominant and / or tritone-substitution function, that is: C7Alt and C7#11 as a dominant chord to F, and F#7Alt and F#7#11 as a tritone substitution to C7. The use of both the -5 and the 5 in C7#11 creates an interesting tension, and it all depends on the voicings how to resolve those.

In this context, one needs to be mindful that any of the above chords contains 2 tritones (C F#, Bb E), and while only the C F# relationship is supported by maj3s, even the E Bb tritone can be used as a switchpoint into multiple directions (e.g., C7Alt can be understood as Bb(7 omitted) b5#5 9#9, with targets towards Eb or A). There is simply too much dynamic in these chords to make precise rules as to what to use how.

I come from the piano, and looking at C7#11- Fmaj, this simple passage works fine for me:

[Phil in London]

Just for fun - Here is the material of C7Alt, using both -5 and +5 (making it C,E,Gb, G#, Bb, Db), in the clothes and function of a Bb dom chord, leading to Eb maj. The 2 tritones in C7Alt make the possibilities quite wide.

[2bornot2bop]

I come from the piano, and looking at C7#11- Fmaj, this simple passage works fine for me:

Piano here too. but I'd never use the clash of half steps unless they're purposely used as tension in a left hand rootless voicing: A-9 GBCE (7 9 -3 5)....or the half step tension created in a left hand rootless G7 +5+9 voicing: F Bb B Eb (b7+9 3 +5)

If in the example you gave, the melody note is in fact G, and the following melody note is F#/Gb , why use the Gb in the left hand during the first half of the measure? Better to use upper structure Two (a D Triad) beneath that F#/Gb in the 2nd half of the measure over a Root b7 LH shell voicing.

Beyond that, what's the purpose of doubling the b7 in the first voicing noted above?

[Phil in London]

Piano here too. but I'd never use the clash of half steps unless they're purposely used as tension in a left hand rootless voicing: A-9 GBCE (7 9 -3 5)....or the half step tension created in a left hand rootless G7 +5+9 voicing: F Bb B Eb (b7+9 3 +5)

If in the example you gave, the melody note is in fact G, and the following melody note is F#/Gb , why use the Gb in the left hand during the first half of the measure? Better to use upper structure Two (a D Triad) beneath that F#/Gb in the 2nd half of the measure over a Root b7 LH shell voicing.

Beyond that, what's the purpose of doubling the b7 in the first voicing noted above?

Ok, to avoid confusion: My post was meant to express that one needs to be careful with strict rules as to how to use alterated and 7#11 chords that contain 2 tritones. The palette to create meaningful transitions in all sorts of directions with those chords is huge. The examples are meant to demonstrate that a 7#11 chord can be used in a dom7 function meaningfully, and that an Alt7 chord can serve in a very different context as well (building the dom-function on the 7). I did not mean to say though that I use 7#11 chords in a dom7 function all the time. Also, my examples are just two out of 1000s of other transitions and voicings that one can use. At the end, the ear is the judge.