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When I listen to my Jazz CDs I notice that when comping, pianos arpeggiate notes quite a bit, but I don't see nearly the same level in guitar comping. Is there an apparent reason for this? Is the guitarist afraid to get in the way of the soloist, possibly? Could it just be tradition?
Thanks.
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04-18-2014 08:29 AM
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i arpeggiate quite a bit, i think, as the spirit moves me...but i play classical style...whatever you may or may not conclude from that...
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I can definitely see that in classical music, and some other genres, but I just don't seem to hear a lot in Jazz. It could be just my misconception.
Originally Posted by randalljazz
Another factor to throw in is whether the guitar is the only comping instrument or if it is sharing duties with a piano, organ, etc...
But when the guitar is the primary comping instrument, I don't seem to hear as much single notes but instead, a lot of strumming with different rhythms and mini-riffs.
I started this thread because my comping has been coming along and I was trying to decide if I wanted to add some "pianistic" touches by throwing in more individual notes in the comping.
I think I will go in that direction, at least when there is not piano, organ, etc.. that is comping also.
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I often arpeggiate the changes when playing behind a singer and a pianist.
wiz
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My goal is to improvise a counter melody that works well with the regular melody, lines not chords. Not there yet
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I am starting to think it comes down to the song, the style of Jazz and the player.
I have not heard Pat Martino or Grant Green arpeggiate much when playing uptempo with a swinging trio or quartet.
Jim Hall, on the other hand, especially playing with a less-swinging musician such as Bill Evans, has more arpeggiation.
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"Less swinging musician like Bill Evans". ????
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Well, let me change that to less swinging songs, such as his beautiful ballads. They seem to be more straight-ahead. Originally Posted by NSJ
"Less swinging musician like Bill Evans". ????
But I digress, I hear a lot of guitar arpeggiation in Latin Jazz and Ballads.
Not so much with guitar on the fast Bop stuff I tend to favor.
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Bill played some beautiful ballads, but not as many As people think...His albums are full of great mid and mid up swinging stuff...and nobody swings in 3 better than Bill!
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Do you have examples of what you mean with arpeggios as played by pianists in comping? I can see that in ballads, but thats where guitarists create similar sounds. For more upbeat tempos, my sense is that most keyboarders will throw in some rather percussive left hand chord torsos to support their solos, but I might just miss the point...
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To be exact, these thoughts struck me as I listened to various backing tracks that featured the piano, bass, and drums. Originally Posted by Phil in London
The pianist would, of course, play various chords, but would also throw in a few chord tones and possibly other single notes as he/she went from chord to chord. I hear the same type of comping on recorded Jazz songs but rarely when I hear the guitar act as the rhythm instrument with the bass and/or drums.
I fancied doing the same with the guitar.
Anyway, I think you are correct that in that with more upbeat tempos both guitar and piano tend to play more percusively and execute a lot of "stabs." But I just don't recall hearing guitarists incorporate many single notes on upbeat songs. They seem to strum and stab chords.
Sorry if I am clear.
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I think the linear piano layout and 2 handed attack lends itself more to those techniques that are so easy to conceive and execute naturally on piano, while on a guitar neck, it's limits cause it to become a more advanced technique and much less natural to execute. A great concept to work on for sure.
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Right, I think the physical limitations of the instrument has a lot to do with it. Harp players play those long beautiful arpeggios that would be impossible on guitar. Much of what we play on guitar is more governed by what's feasible to play on the instrument, rather than purely on music- our choice of what notes to play in a chord, for example, and that we're limited to only 6 note chords. On piano it's much easier to dance up and down the notes of a chord. Guitarists have to learn their scales and arpeggios as separate things (more or less), on piano they just play the notes of the scale and omit every other note. It's a very simple proposition for a pianist to play a legato 5 octave arpeggio so playing arpeggios is technically and mentally very similar to playing up and down a scale, so it's easier to play individual notes of chords very freely. Rhythmically they also have some advantages and contemporary jazz pianists tend to float around in time and from note to note they can be ahead or behind the beat, or they can chord behind with their left hand and apreggiate ahead of the beat with their right hand. all of which lets them do some really cool and complex stuff with their comping.
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I'm working towards recording Bill Evans' beautiful ballad, Waltz For Debby. Always loved this song, particularly as recorded by Eliane Elias with her beautiful singing and piano playing, and Ralph Towner's solo guitar version. When played as a solo guitar with vocals, the comping is part of the arrangement, and I do not see much difference in approach. Of course, piano is a percussive instrument and even more polyphonic than the guitar, but beyond that, I frequently listen to Evans' version of standards for a definitive harmonic approach. I think Towner did the same in arranging his solo version on his album Works.
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So the beauty of Bill Evans seems to be his choice of less is more. And in that concept which few notes create the most interesting harmony and tension. For me the guitarist who embodies this similar approach is Lenny Breau.
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People say that all the time, and youre right--but Bill knew when more was more too--he could burn!
Sometimes I think people just listen to "Blue in Green" and base their whole conception of Bill off that.
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Agreed. The Complete Vanguard 61 with LaFaro and Motian are a must have. Really changed the trio format. I actually have the silhouetted cover as a tattoo. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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did 2b ever find that out the hard way! Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
In my experience of Evans, the opposite is true. Many times Bill used 10 fingered chords. Originally Posted by jads57
Check Jack Reilly's 'the harmony of Bill Evans', a common book among piano players investigating Evans.
The Harmony of Bill Evans: Jack Reilly, Bill Evans: 0073999994056: Amazon.com: BooksLast edited by 2bornot2bop; 04-20-2014 at 04:31 PM.
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Evans, as a comping sideman on Kind of Blue, is actually quite economical, I always found that approach easy to translate to guitar, he's always been a model for me. His trio work is a whole different story.
Last edited by cosmic gumbo; 04-20-2014 at 07:09 PM.
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Sid Jacobs has a Evsns for guitar book. No idea if any good. Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
KOB is an an anomaly I think in his career. 98% of his stuff seems to his trio. I think I one every box set of his including the hazardous and rusted over Verve box
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I prefer the guitar as a comping instrument over piano, has more rhythmic possibilities, and sonically it stays kind of "out of the way " of the soloist. Piano tends to be too dominant to my ears. The comping of Jim Hall on The Bridge is a great example.
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What might those "possibilities" be? Originally Posted by cmedina
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Well, you can get away with every rhythms a piano player might play, but they would have a hard time playing a lot of guitar strumming patterns that are easier for us.
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Funk
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About a year ago I sat in with a piano/bass duo, some old friends from college. On some of the tunes I was doing the basic 4 to the bar comping thing with my volume turned down. The piano player dug it and actually said "thank you" at one point while we were playing. Later he said something about how that's something that would sound lame on the piano. Imagine hearing a piano player play an entire tune with straight quarter notes on the left hand chords? So that's one of the things our instrument has contributed to the rhythm section tradition that is unique.
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