Playing chords with tensions in a big band

[malanzas]

How do you play chords when you play guitar in the rhythm section of a modern big band? I mean not a classic swing big band ala Freddie Green style. Do you play the chords as they are written by the arranger, with all the tensions, or you simplify? I feel sometimes the guitar sheet is, I will not say impossible, but very difficult to play as it is. Maybe a more skilled guitarist than me can play the sheets without any problem, but I think some arrangers don't know the playability of the guitar part they write. I would like to know your opinions, experiences and advices.

[coolvinny]

You generally ignore all tensions (edit: to be clear, sus chords are not extensions - I sus when it says sus and I resolve only when the sus is removed) and instead you focus on thirds/sevenths with good time feel. As you work your way through the song, the band energy level is elevated and get a better feel for how the song sounds in that moment, sometimes you throw in some extensions if it feels right. At least, this is how I approach it. But I never compromise rhythm for an extension.

The only time I will really try to nail the extensions is in the final chord or two of the chard, or possibly if I know for certain that I have a lot of musical space around what I am playing (e.g. it's just the guitar chording to introduce a piano solo or something).

[Michael Kaye]

I Agree with Vinny. You have to simplify the chart. Your role is primarily rhythm feel. Don't worry about altered tones /extensions. IMO, it's too muddy if you try and play all those full chords as shown on the chart. Sometimes I "cheat" and play the top note or altered tones with octaves but keep the rhythm feel when it's appropriate to the dynamics of the song. That way you have good rhythmic sense but you stay out of the bass player and piano's way.

It's a little tough to get used to because you feel like you aren't playing the song and it doesn't satisfy the harmony but overall it's sounds better and it's easier for you. Once you learn the chart really well you can embellish more but not too much. It's not really your place in a big band.

[cosmic gumbo]

I agree with all the above advice, the primary concern is to remember you are one part of what the rhythm section is doing. RHYTHM. Often the arrangers seem like they're asking for too much, but many like to give the guitarist the complete voicing that reflects the functional harmony and it gives clues to options for voice leading. You can disregard roots and perfect 5ths in your voicings, they are implied and supplied by the bassist. Worry about the other chord intervals.

At first chords seem more complex than they need to be, but after a while, you'll notice most are just inversions of much simpler chords, just with a more complex name, because they reflect harmonic function vs. giving you a simpler named voicing that isn't functionally correct. For example, you may actually need to play a simple rootless F9, E9 1/2 step descending sequence, but your chart might ask you to play F9, Bb7#5b9, because it reflects proper function, but in actual practice Bb7#5b9 = E9.

It's your job to eventually understand that is where arrangers are coming from. Most of the stuff is playable once you realize that without the root, most chords function as 3,4, or 5 different chords. In a 4 piece rhythm section, there isn't room for a guitarist who plays more than 4 notes at once. 2,3,4 notes is plenty to give the flavor needed.

[wizard3739]

All of the above is important but also, IMHO, it depends on the size of the band, if it is really a BIG band. your approach should probably be to dig into the rhythm and lay off of extensions and altered chords. Use simple triads, voice your chords so you are not in conflict with the Keyboard and Bass. There are usually a lot of single note melodic instruments (horns and reeds) who are already doing extended and altered notes as their part of the written arrangement.

wiz

[JonR]

How do you play chords when you play guitar in the rhythm section of a modern big band? I mean not a classic swing big band ala Freddie Green style. Do you play the chords as they are written by the arranger, with all the tensions, or you simplify? I feel sometimes the guitar sheet is, I will not say impossible, but very difficult to play as it is. Maybe a more skilled guitarist than me can play the sheets without any problem, but I think some arrangers don't know the playability of the guitar part they write. I would like to know your opinions, experiences and advices.

Nothing to add to the above answers, except a quote from Freddie Green himself:

"I don't try to play those big 'concert' chords. I play just a couple of notes,
sometimes just one, but it sets the sound of the chord. When you try to play
those big chords, it can make the whole band drag."

Freddie Green Style: Lessons & Technique

Remember the written chord symbols on an arranger's chart will probably reflect all the extensions or alterations played by other instruments. Your role (esp in a big band) is a more percussive rhythmic role, very minimal harmonic content required.

[mr. beaumont]

The O'S question is about a modern big band, not a Freddie green style swing band.

[fumblefingers]

i'm not sure what the difference is with regards to harmony and instrumentation?

[mr. beaumont]

There isnt...but there could be a big difference in the role of the guitar. Not necessarily just a piece of "tuned percussion."

I'd have to hear to hear the group the OP is playing with to really comment further...

[malanzas]

Thanks for your comments, they are really instructive. To give more information, I play in a modern big band (about 20 musicians) and we try to cover a wide repertoire with jazz standards, funk, bossa nova and Latin themes.

[fumblefingers]

beyond the time-tested generalities listed above, i think its a question of context, in other words what is happening in the score at the moment.

in other words, if the piano is playing chords and the horns are playing harmonies, it seems to me that the role of the guitar is rather minimal, as stated above.

on the other extreme, if they're laying out or playing sparsely - and - if the score calls for the guitar to play a prominent role....

if in doubt ask your conductor/band leader.



P.S. Fareed Haque has some helpful advice on this topic in his True Fire course Comping Survival Guide.

[coolvinny]

Thanks for your comments, they are really instructive. To give more information, I play in a modern big band (about 20 musicians) and we try to cover a wide repertoire with jazz standards, funk, bossa nova and Latin themes.

We have a similar mix in our big band.

[RyanM]

I'll leave these here in case anyone hasn't seen them:

[christianm77]

How do you play chords when you play guitar in the rhythm section of a modern big band? I mean not a classic swing big band ala Freddie Green style. Do you play the chords as they are written by the arranger, with all the tensions, or you simplify? I feel sometimes the guitar sheet is, I will not say impossible, but very difficult to play as it is. Maybe a more skilled guitarist than me can play the sheets without any problem, but I think some arrangers don't know the playability of the guitar part they write. I would like to know your opinions, experiences and advices.

I think if it's not Freddie Green style, it's best to play what's written. Usually with anything Basie/swing I pare down the chords to 1 3 7 or 1 3 6, or even just the D string as shown by Mr Chirillo above, but with a more sustaining/electric guitar tone it becomes possible to contribute the ensemble in a different way, and the composer probably wants that stuff doubled by the guitar.

Needless to say, reading them is trick! Things you can do
Basic principle - Play as few notes as possible
1) Ignore anything to the right of the / in a slash chord. The bass will do that for you.
2) Leave out the root in anything bigger than a triad
3) Prune down the extensions - if you see C Maj 13 play B E A and ignore the other notes. If you see a C maj7 +5 a bar later you'll know the composer intended a chromatic line A-G#. So - play what is specified, nothing more :-)

Hard to say though! A lot of arrangers tend to have the guitar as an after-thought. Many bands don't even have one.

Hope that helps, good luck!

[JonR]

The O'S question is about a modern big band, not a Freddie green style swing band.

Thanks, I misread the question!

Of course it still comes down to the context - depending on what the other instruments are doing: not stepping on toes in either the harmony or the rhythm; but at the same time providing a foundation (at least) in both when needed.
And given the wide repertoire of the band, that's going to vary from tune to tune...

[Sam Sherry]

It's interesting to see / hear your perspectives. My main instrument is double bass and I've been playing big bands on and off for about forty years. Although I'd go bonkers doing nothing but, I love playing big band bass because it's such a weird, unique musical puzzle. Here's what I mean:

The point of high-quality big-band bass playing is that we almost never play the written line. Composers and arrangers are never bassists. The composer / arranger literally does not know what a solid bassist can do to help drive the band, so they don't know what to 'ask for' in their chart.

Most of the time if there is a written-out bass line either a) the composer / arranger 'really wants' an improvised line which swings harder than his or her attempt or b) there is a precise line which meshes with the band better than the half-baked part the composer / arranger has provided AND that line is not the one on the page.

Much of the time if the chart shows nothing but chords there will be precise hits which kick the band harder than just walking quarters through the chart.

So the bassist's job is to sight-read and listen simultaneously -- imagine that! -- and to figure out where the band is likely to go so that s/he can provide what the composer / arranger would want if s/he knew what s/he wanted.

And then there are those rare and fine charts which are actually helpful. I'm fortunate to have more than a few in my current big band but that's always a giant bonus.

+ + +

When I play guitar with a big band Job Number One is to avoid clashing with the band. If the part says C Demolished and I play C9 I am sure to clash with some horn(s) and probably with the pianist too. Again, it's all about listening, anticipating and working with space in a dense musical environment.

Thanks & back to my cave.

[RyanShea]

When I played in high school jazz band, I worked out a deal with the pianist- in relatively quick songs or ones that had a lot of tension chords, she would focus on the "plain" chord (Root 3rd 5th) and I would cover the 3rd, 7th and extensions when they were important in supporting the overall tonality. I agree with what others above have said- it can really depend on what the rest of the rhythm section and what the band is doing.