Joe Pass substitute pattern

**juri** · 03-17-2014, 08:30 PM

Hi

I'm reading the book Joe pass guitar style.
And I'm a little stuck on the substitute patterns.

Here is wat He says:

"The following patterns substitute for C major. there are many possible variations, so experiment."

Than he shows that you can substitute Cmaj7 for |Cmaj7 Dm7 Em7 Fmaj9|C69
or |Cmaj7 Dm11| Em7 Dm9(11) | cmaj7 (And some variations).

I've tried to play this in the bridge of take the a train, You got there four bars of Fmay7 (I used Gm Am Bbmaj7 back to F). But for me it didn't sound right..

so here's my question. on witch songs do you use this substitution pattern(or similar patterns ) and when do you use it?

gr jur

**Melodic Dreamer** · 03-17-2014, 11:30 PM

I know what you mean. It's probably my lack of ability to make things sound good. lol

Here is a Book called, Joe Pass Guitar Chords.

On page 20 or 21 there is a substitution page.
Some of these I can't get to work either.

**Melodic Dreamer** · 03-18-2014, 12:42 PM

Oh, sorry
didnt even think about that. My bad!

**ColinO** · 03-18-2014, 01:06 PM

You have to make sure any chord you sub fits with the melody. In your case, the Gm, assuming you are trying to play it over the second bar of the bridge, is being played over the notes - E, F, A, C (all FM7 chord tones). All of those notes (except the F) would clash with at least one note in the Gm7 chord which are G, Bb, D, F. It would be like playing an FM7 and Gm7 chord at the same time.

Try playing the same chords only play the F and Gm in the first bar and then the Am in the second and the Bb in the third and the F in the fourth and see if that sounds better.

The point is that the chords you sub have to work with the melody or else they don't work at all.

**juri** · 03-18-2014, 04:03 PM

Thanks

**Vladan** · 03-19-2014, 09:38 AM

Of course, you can always Jazz up the melody to fit chords.

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 03-19-2014, 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by juri

Yes, you have to think about how it fits against the melody, but do you get what Joe is doing? All those chords are diatonic in C (notes drawn from the C scale):

Dm7 = D F A C
Em7 = E G B D
FMaj9 = F A C E G

Dm11 = D F A C E G
Em11 = E G B D F# A (I bet Joe won't play the F#, though it's not the end of the world)

**garybaldy** · 03-21-2014, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by juri

Hi

I'm reading the book Joe pass guitar style.
And I'm a little stuck on the substitute patterns.

Here is wat He says:

"The following patterns substitute for C major. there are many possible variations, so experiment."

Than he shows that you can substitute Cmaj7 for |Cmaj7 Dm7 Em7 Fmaj9|C69
or |Cmaj7 Dm11| Em7 Dm9(11) | cmaj7 (And some variations).

I've tried to play this in the bridge of take the a train, You got there four bars of Fmay7 (I used Gm Am Bbmaj7 back to F). But for me it didn't sound right..

so here's my question. on witch songs do you use this substitution pattern(or similar patterns ) and when do you use it?

gr jur

You are still in the key of C major in the bridge so the Bb notes in the Gm and Bbmaj7 will not work.

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 03-21-2014, 03:07 PM

Originally Posted by garybaldy

You are still in the key of C major in the bridge so the Bb notes in the Gm and Bbmaj7 will not work.

**garybaldy** · 03-21-2014, 10:16 PM

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

It may be an fmaj7 arp but you are not in the key of fmaj. You are playing in the key of Cmaj - there is no modulation to another key at this point in the song.
The 'Joe's idea' you have written out is clearly in the key of fmaj where the Bb note in the Gm7 is perfectly acceptable.

Bars 3 and 4 use a type of tritone substitution with back cycling and seems to be modulating but could return to the F chord by adding (after the D7) a G7 to C7 and resolving to F.

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 03-21-2014, 10:52 PM

Originally Posted by garybaldy

It may be an fmaj7 arp but you are not in the key of fmaj. You are playing in the key of Cmaj - there is no modulation to another key at this point in the song.
The 'Joe's idea' you have written out is clearly in the key of fmaj where the Bb note in the Gm7 is perfectly acceptable.

Bars 3 and 4 use a type of tritone substitution with back cycling and seems to be modulating but could return to the F chord by adding (after the D7) a G7 to C7 and resolving to F.

I'm home and tried that on guitar. Gm7 sounds better to me than G7. Give it a try. While it may "be in C", the start of the bridge is a good a place as any to stretch that. And yes, I was back cycling from the D7 given in the original progression.

**pkirk** · 03-22-2014, 12:30 AM

Originally Posted by garybaldy

It may be an fmaj7 arp but you are not in the key of fmaj. You are playing in the key of Cmaj - there is no modulation to another key at this point in the song.
The 'Joe's idea' you have written out is clearly in the key of fmaj where the Bb note in the Gm7 is perfectly acceptable.

Bars 3 and 4 use a type of tritone substitution with back cycling and seems to be modulating but could return to the F chord by adding (after the D7) a G7 to C7 and resolving to F.

The chord on the first four bars of the bridge of A train are Fmaj7, not Cmaj. You definitely *dont* want to stay in Cmaj at that point. I think the suggested JP harmonic embellishment sounds fine.

Bars 3 and 4 are D7#11 (as are 5 and 6 of the bridge). A static II7 is a fairly common harmonic device (girl from ipanema, isfahan, green dolphin street, etc). Tritone subs usually refer to replacing a V7 by a bII7, that's not what is happening here.
you'd be better off thinking of this D7 as a Amin(maj7)

**garybaldy** · 03-22-2014, 08:40 AM

Originally Posted by pkirk

The chord on the first four bars of the bridge of A train are Fmaj7, not Cmaj. You definitely *dont* want to stay in Cmaj at that point. I think the suggested JP harmonic embellishment sounds fine.

Bars 3 and 4 are D7#11 (as are 5 and 6 of the bridge). A static II7 is a fairly common harmonic device (girl from ipanema, isfahan, green dolphin street, etc). Tritone subs usually refer to replacing a V7 by a bII7, that's not what is happening here.
you'd be better off thinking of this D7 as a Amin(maj7)

I think the point of this thread is that the subs didn't work for the OP and why. I personally agree with him/her and have given my reason why.
Also I did not suggest the Gm7 should be replaced by a G7(BigDaddy).
As it happens I played this particular tune at a gig last night and my choice of chords over the 4 bars of Fmaj7 would be a variety of Fmaj,Fmaj7,F6,F6/9 in various positions, particularly in view of the melody notes.
Playing too many Bb notes would infer you we playing in the key of Fmaj which to me and, clearly, the OP sounds wrong.
For instance, if you took a simple tune using just Cmaj, Fmaj and G7 chords we would all agree that the song was in Cmaj. It would not be wise to play Bb notes over the Fmaj as it would destroy the harmony and sound odd. There's nothing wrong with playing a Bnat over the Fmaj chord - Moonriver comes to mind.
My reference to bars 3 and 4 is not 3 and 4 of the song but 3 and 4 of the Joe pass sequence, the tritone being F/B7.

**pkirk** · 03-22-2014, 09:39 AM

That section in Joe Pass' book is about embellishing your comping when the chart is staying put on a maj7 chord: JP is playing the *entire sequence* Fmaj-Gmi7-Ami7-Bbmaj7, one beat per chord, or 2 beats per chord, when comping over a static Fmaj7 chord. This is just an example of harmonizing the Fmaj scale, everybody does this all the time. Just substituting a Bbmaj7 for an Fmaj7 is not going to work, but that's definitely not what JP means.

There's also the question of where that Bbmaj7 is placed rhythmically. JP puts in on beat 4. In the OP juri wrote that he used Gmi Ami Bbmaj: if that's what he did it's not what JP is advocating, since the Bbmaj came on strong rather than weak beat, and will sound awkward, just like playing a Bb note on a strong beat over a Fmajor chord is going to sound weak, in the same way that hanging on an F note on the Cmaj7 first 2 bars of this tune is going to sound weak.

I'm not sure what you mean by bar 3 and 4 of the joe pass sequence, since his examples are all 2 bars long. I don't see anywhere in the book where JP advocates substituting a B7 over an Fmaj7. BDLH's suggestion (Fmaj7 B7/ Em7 A7 for bars 3 and 4 of the bridge) is backcycling towards the D7. This isn't a substitution for the Fmaj7, but an anticipation for the D7: it wouldn't work if a D chord didn't follow the A7, in particular if the tune stayed on an Fmaj7. In particular, it isn't a tritone sub in the sense that that term is typically used in jazz.

As far as the tune being "in the key of Cmaj", I've never found that to be a helpful way to think about tunes when comping or improvising. You have to address the harmony, no matter what the key signature is. In particular, if the first 4 bars of the bridge of A train are in any "key", then it's definitely Fmaj7, since the last bar of the second A is a C7, signaling a modulation to F.

**juri** · 03-25-2014, 06:58 PM

Originally Posted by pkirk

That section in Joe Pass' book is about embellishing your comping when the chart is staying put on a maj7 chord: JP is playing the *entire sequence* Fmaj-Gmi7-Ami7-Bbmaj7, one beat per chord, or 2 beats per chord, when comping over a static Fmaj7 chord. This is just an example of harmonizing the Fmaj scale, everybody does this all the time. Just substituting a Bbmaj7 for an Fmaj7 is not going to work, but that's definitely not what JP means.

There's also the question of where that Bbmaj7 is placed rhythmically. JP puts in on beat 4. In the OP juri wrote that he used Gmi Ami Bbmaj: if that's what he did it's not what JP is advocating, since the Bbmaj came on strong rather than weak beat, and will sound awkward, just like playing a Bb note on a strong beat over a Fmajor chord is going to sound weak, in the same way that hanging on an F note on the Cmaj7 first 2 bars of this tune is going to sound weak.

Thanks I didn't thought of the rhythmical placement. So I will try to look at that part.
For me it wasn't clear that the part of the book was about harmonizing the scale.
Because he wrote The following patterns could substitute for c major.. and it's in the part of harmony chord substitution...

I also read it in the jazz theory book. Mark levine wrote. " I-II-III-IV is often played by pianist and guitarist wehen a major 7th chord last two bars". He gives the example of bar 7 and 8 of all the things you are.

So you can use this to substitute it for a major chord when you look at the placement of the chords and that if it's sounds right with the melody? or am I still wrong?

gr jur

**pkirk** · 03-25-2014, 10:44 PM

Hey Juri:

Yes, that part of the book (and the levine quote) answers the question: If, when comping, you have to play Cmaj for several bars, what can you do to spice it up? Pass and Levine tell you another approach is to play, *in sequence* I II III IV, etc, which basically is another way of saying, harmonize the scale and move up (or down the scale). Of course, the II and IV will not sound as strong, since chords are built in 3rds, so you want to try to emphasize the I and III.

Just to be clear, Pass is not saying to play a Fmaj if the chord is a Cmaj. (But at some point anything can replace anything else in the right context)

you can just substitute some chords for another, eg Amin or Emin works as a straight sub for Cmaj.

All this applies to soloing too.

As far as sounding right with the melody, this is rarely an issue for as simple an idea as this, and as simple a tune. You have to be careful if some other tonality is implied. For example, if you have 2 bars of Cmaj7 but the lydian tonality is implied by the melody then it might be more appropriate to substitute /Cmaj7 Bmi7 /Ami7 etc.

**Phil in London** · 04-03-2014, 04:13 AM

I agree, those are just non emphasised passing chords to not stay on one form of C maj too long. In a very simple form you might play x3x45x x5x56x x7x78x x3x45x, with the second chord D min being just a pass through to E min, which serves as C maj9 inversion. These things can be used even in short sequences. I know, thats very generic, but I guess in principle thats what JP had in mind.