Alternative Grips For Chords?

[elixzer]

This is something I have searched for and failed to find. For example, say I come to a chord and when I try and play it like another chord I am blocked from progrssing because the strings are damplend OR I just cannot physically grip the chord. Well it would be cool then to Google a chord for alternative grips and voicings where you get the same chord sound.

Now learning Brazilian type music, I very much love how often the chords are built so that you use the base strings for the percussion and PLUCK the other strings. However in some compositions you come to a chord grip which includes barring of a whole fret, and THESE chords I have difficulty with, because when I pluck the base and other strings I am getting a total damped out sound. So on one song I have been exploring, Girl from Impanema, I have compensated by strumming the barred chords. But I also would eventually like to be able to a) do what I am doing with the other chords---playing base strings and plucking other strings OR a) find alternative grips where I would not HAVE to barre a full fret but get same flavour of sound.

Now, ideally, I sense that if I get replies there will be advice to learn how to barre correctly, and I am aware that doing that makes for better results, BUT I AM NOT ASKING THAT. I am rather asking:

how can I find alternative grips for chords which use full fret barres, so that I can doge the problem I have with this? Is that possible?

Example, this chord: F#m7(9) this is where the 2nd fret has full barre and then pinky goes on high E on 4th fret and M goes on A string 4th fret. At present I have to strum this one

[mr. beaumont]

No.

If you want the bass note and the rest of the chord, you're going to have to get barring down.

But...

Essentially you only need the bass note and whatever strings you pluck to come out cleanly...what's your picking hand doing? What strings are you actually striking?

[ColinO]

If you don't barre you are going to lose something. In your example of the F#m7 chord, you could use your second finger on the low F# and then barre the top 4 strings with your third finger and place your pinky on the high G#. The only note you lose is the low C# which is redundant and generally unnecessary.(make sure the 5th string does not sound by the way) So I would say, if you want to lose the barre, or can't play a particular chord, then figure out what notes you can live without and figure out the chord that you can play.

But yeah - learn how to barre.

[JakeAcci]

Trying to play jazz guitar without the skill of barre-ing is like having a baseball team without a short stop; not useless, and sure there are ways around it, but it's going to be much, much harder.

Barre chords are tough and take most of my students a long time to master, it takes effort and really is better to not try to work around it.

Jamie Andreas has a dvd course on mastering the physical aspect of playing a barre, has anyone checked it out?

[pingu]

Essentially you only need the bass note and whatever strings you pluck to come out cleanly...what's your picking hand doing? What strings are you actually striking?

yes ..... also you can play the bottom F# with your
thumb

yes there are other F#min9 grips around
eg
x
9
7
9
9
x

or
x
x
7
6
5
4

[elixzer]

Barre chords are tough and take most of my students a long time to master, it takes effort and really is better to not try to work around it.

I know, and that is what I said I already knew and then emphasized that is not what I am asking---how to barre effectively. I AM asking to work around it.

[elixzer]

No.

If you want the bass note and the rest of the chord, you're going to have to get barring down.

But...

Essentially you only need the bass note and whatever strings you pluck to come out cleanly...what's your picking hand doing? What strings are you actually striking?

Was the last bit a question?

Are you saying that whenever I see a chord that has a barre, I just need to know what is bass note and strings that need plucking? Which would mean I dont NEED to barre all all?

[mr. beaumont]

Definitely a question.

Think about it…unless you’re strumming with your thumb, you’re not getting all six strings in a chord when you play in that “brazillian” style. You need to look at what strings you’re actually playing, and make sure those come out cleanly.

Barring is still inevitable, but for something like that chord you mentioned in your OP, you’re probably not actually playing all six strings…

There’s almost always another way…this is why it’s so important to understand what notes are in a chord, and see them that way, as a collection of pitches—not just a “shape.”

[JonR]

Was the last bit a question?

Are you saying that whenever I see a chord that has a barre, I just need to know what is bass note and strings that need plucking? Which would mean I dont NEED to barre all all?

Yes.
It all depends what you are seeking to achieve.

If playing an accompaniment to a singer, you need a bass note, and maybe 2 other chord tones, usually 3rd and 7th. If the chord has an altered 5th, you probably need that too. That's four essential notes max, usually only 3.
Anything else is an optional extra, for filling out the sound if you can. (Obviously a 4-note requirement is good, because you have 4 fingers... )

If you're playing a solo guitar arrangement, you need the melody first and foremost. Then a bass line. Then maybe one or two additional notes for the chord harmony between bass and melody - especially in a tune like Ipanema, where there are long melody notes, and periods with no melody note (you need something interesting to keep going in the background). It still shouldn't need more than 4 notes at any one time.

The guitar provides 6 strings to choose from, and there is no rule saying you have to use all 6 - ever! (A pianist can hit a maximum of 10 notes at any one time; they feel no need to do that all the time, if at all.)
Obviously for simple strumming, it's usually easier to employ full 6-string shapes, to save having to mute unwanted strings; and that usually means barres for movable chords. (Although with many non-barred movable shapes, muting a string or two is not difficult.
But if you're fingerpicking, you can - literally! - pick and choose which strings you're sounding, with (usually) no need to mute the others.

The other thing to consider when choosing grips is ease of changing from one chord to the next. Normally you want smooth changes, with minimal hand movement - it's not only easier for you, it sounds better too. So it helps to know which notes are which in every chord, as well as seeing how one shape can shift to the next.

[elixzer]

Definitely a question.

Think about it…unless you’re strumming with your thumb, you’re not getting all six strings in a chord when you play in that “brazillian” style. You need to look at what strings you’re actually playing, and make sure those come out cleanly.

Barring is still inevitable, but for something like that chord you mentioned in your OP, you’re probably not actually playing all six strings…

There’s almost always another way…this is why it’s so important to understand what notes are in a chord, and see them that way, as a collection of pitches—not just a “shape.”

well for the chord F#m7(9) I see the notes are F# C# E A B G# So unless I am mistaken, most of the other chords are thumb hitting base note and 3 fingers plucking 3 notes, but that mofo got 6 notes...???

[bako]

X X F# A E G# or X F# A E G# X

but if you want the low F# bass note

F# X E A C# G# or without the b7 F# X X A C# G# or with b7 F# X X A E G#

but if you want Root 5th alternation that brings us back to something like where this discussion started.

F# C# E A E G# or F# C# X A E G#

You can run and hide and use workarounds, but sooner or later barre chords will find you.
Probably better to dig in build the requisite skills now.

[mr. beaumont]

well for the chord F#m7(9) I see the notes are F# C# E A B G# So unless I am mistaken, most of the other chords are thumb hitting base note and 3 fingers plucking 3 notes, but that mofo got 6 notes...???

A lot of people will finger the whole chord so that if the right hand strikes the wrong strings, the notes are still consonant.

But generally, if you're playing in that bossa style, you're looking at bass note + 3 notes on the pluck, maybe 4...you actually have the C# doubled in that chord--your second string note is incorrect.

[Patrick2]

Barre vs grand barre . . . .

[DalenWirth]

The picking should be gentle..

[fritz jones]

you could comp using chords that don't require barring.
lot's of ninth chords and drop 2 voicings don't need barres.
closed voicings, clusters, chords with open string notes.
drop 3 voicings can be fingered without barring.

[elixzer]

you could comp using chords that don't require barring.
lot's of ninth chords and drop 2 voicings don't need barres.
closed voicings, clusters, chords with open string notes.
drop 3 voicings can be fingered without barring.

curious then, what would you use for F#m7(9)

[cosmic gumbo]

Guitar chord voicings are often a compromise, the ear must decide what's going to do the job. Not using barre chords means less choices, more compromises.

Do you need that 9 in the top of your voice? If not, this grip is a compromise, but it's got everything in it. I personally don't like the sound of it, and it seems as difficult as a barre chord to play clean, but...

F#m7(9)

2 0 2 1 2 0

F# A E G# C# E

R b3 b7 9 5 b7

[JonR]

curious then, what would you use for F#m7(9)

I'm not answering for fritz, but in this specific case - the chord in the bridge of Girl From Ipanema, played bossa style with no bass accompaniment - one of these:

4
5
2
-
(4)
2

That's a barre, but I'm picking, so the 4th string is unnecessary, and I only need the 5th string if I want the 5th in the bass as an option as well as the root. I might actually leave out the 7th on this chord (playing fret 2 on 2nd string instead), I think it works fine without in this case. (The 7th on the 4th string fret 2 could included, but IMO it sounds too low there. YMMV )

For a non-barre shape - which is what you're asking - maybe one of these (same voicing, two different positions):

4 - ring
5 - pinky (again, could be omitted if you can manage a 2-string barre on 2 )
2 - index
4 - middle
(4 - middle)
-

-
9 - pinky
9 - ring
7 - index
9 - middle
(9 - middle)
-

The middle doesn't play both strings together, but can alternate to the lower string if you want the 5th as an additional bass note. Of course, that puts the root in a higher octave, but should still work in a solo piece.
Most importantly, there's room to play the rest of the melody notes in those 2 bars. Something like this:

----------------|---------------|-------------------
-9--------------|--10--9-7-9--7-|5-----7---------------------
-9---9-----9---9|--9-------9----|5-------------------------
-7---7-----7---7|--7-------7----|7-------------------------
-9--------------|9--------------|5----------------------
---------9------|--------9------|---------------------
 1 . 2 . 3 . 4 . 1 . 2 . 3 . 4 . 1 . 2 . 3 . 4 .

Of course, if you're not playing the tune, just accompanying, then it's even easier.

[targuit]

Just as an aside, could I suggest that most forum readers should have the minimal ability to understand a specific chord formation such as F#m7(9) in a given fret position? That relieves most of the tedium of creating reams of various forms of tab. This is not an elitist critique. It is far more effective for a teacher to say "I like the voicing of this chord at the 2nd or 9th fret..." than to indicate the notes as tab. Students need to get past musical illiteracy generally before they can play seriously.

[JonR]

Just as an aside, could I suggest that most forum readers should have the minimal ability to understand a specific chord formation such as F#m7(9) in a given fret position? That relieves most of the tedium of creating reams of various forms of tab. This is not an elitist critique. It is far more effective for a teacher to say "I like the voicing of this chord at the 2nd or 9th fret..." than to indicate the notes as tab. Students need to get past musical illiteracy generally before they can play seriously.

Ideally yes, certainly for jazz. But personally I wouldn't want to bar anyone who's not at that level yet.

Generally, I only use tab because notation is harder to post. It's only intended to specify notes, not positions. In this case, of course, the question is specifically about shapes and voicing, and tab is useful to show options which notation doesn't.

[elixzer]

without wanting to derail my thread and start on the philosophy of learning music or whatever we might call it. ALL I can say is this~~ SINCE I learnt the tune Insensatez on guitar by watching a guy playing it on youtube and trying to work out where his fingers were, and then writing this all down as tabs, and then finding I was struggling gripping the 'exotic' chords, but that a deep love for this melody and song really gave me inspiration to keep at it and that now the playing of it is becoming far more fluent and I am able to improvise singing over it and it feels GREAT, and has inspired me to go onto learn other Brazilian songs on guitar, and also Delta Blues, this has given me so much more confidence than how I was before---worrying about 'understanding' music

I can understand a person who claims to be musically literate and has gone through studying chord structure etc to then really push it on others. However, not everyone is the same. So surely it is better that when a person asks for some musical assistance, it is encouraging to give them what they are asking for? Because they are showing interest. And are doing things their way. Like as there have been musicians who are great but don't know how to read music, or they hold a guitar in a very unconventional way or play it like that too.
I am all for encouraging the SPIRIT of music---that feeling you get when really feeling good playing it, and it dont matter if you know only one song if you have that feel.

[jckoto3]

Just as an aside, could I suggest that most forum readers should have the minimal ability to understand a specific chord formation such as F#m7(9) in a given fret position?

Sure, but try to remember that it's easy to take knowledge for granted once it has been obtained. People come here to learn.

That relieves most of the tedium of creating reams of various forms of tab. This is not an elitist critique. It is far more effective for a teacher to say "I like the voicing of this chord at the 2nd or 9th fret..." than to indicate the notes as tab. Students need to get past musical illiteracy generally before they can play seriously.

I disagree: it IS an elitist critique. Sure, "Students need to get past musical illiteracy generally before they can play seriously" because we aren't born with musical knowledge, that's why people ask questions and TAB is *but one* method to provide answers, one that happens to work well with the ASCII character set.

A teacher saying "I like the voicing of this chord at the 2nd or 9th fret..." works well in person where it can be demonstrated. Not so much on a text-based forum.

[pingu]

well for the chord F#m7(9) I see the notes are F# C# E A B G# So unless I am mistaken, most of the other chords are thumb hitting base note and 3 fingers plucking 3 notes, but that mofo got 6 notes...???

no B note required (it would be the 11th)
1 b3 5 b7 and 9
thats F# A C# E and G#

another good point not mentioned yet is
to have your nut height set up properly
( as PTChris advocates !)
and then the grand barre type grips will be a lot easier !

Grand barre aren't used much in jazz or bossa
or boss guitar

[GodinFan]

I'm surprised that no one seems to have really touched on what context this chord is being used in.

Is it a chord melody, where the 9th is the melody note? In that case, that particular note is crucial.

Is it a color tone on the minor 7th chord? In that case, it can be omitted.

All that's really needed to say F#m7 is an F# in the bass, an A (the minor 3rd) and an E (the minor 7th).

If you're accompanying a vocal, that's plenty of support.

Specific voicings:


For chord melody with the 9th in the melody - xx2224

Chord melody or accompaniment - x9799x (root on the bottom, ninth on top) (edited to correct)

Vocal accompaniment: 2x22xx or 2x222x (R, 7, 3 or R, 7, 3, 5)

OR

2422xx, if you want to do an alternating bass line.

[fritz jones]

if you need to play the f# on the sixth string then I guess you have to barre with either first finger, or put middle finger on F#, and barre with third finger on middle strings with pinky on G# 1st string. Or subsititute Amaj7 closed voicing for F#m7.
there is no need to double a non-essential chord tone like the 5th.