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I am trying to understand chord structures. By 'my way'. I am not really an abc kind of person. I have for example--my first tune I love and when I have picked up guitar never seem to get sick of it is Insensatez By Jobim. As some here may remember, quite a while back I found the fingering by looking at a guy playing it on Youtube, and then put down the tabs. But recently I have been wanting to know what the chords are. I will be asking about that later, because many have multiple names.
But this is present question. I am trying to keep up with understanding where the triad inversions are for all the major scales all over fretboard. I came to the one that has C as root in top three strings of 3-5 frets where you can finger the C minor chord. I LOVE when you play this with the open D string, and wondered to myself what that chord would be named. Forgetting loads of stuff from the past lol I thought it COULD be a S minr 9th because I knew that when a 2nd note is part of a chord it can be called a 9th. But when I checked out the chord at a guitar chordfinder I got these chords for that chord:
D7b9sus4 D 7th Flat 9th Suspended 4th D#M13/D D#/D Major 13th
So I realized that OF COURSE, it is the ROOT of the chord which is important, D. I analyzed first chord and realized that the 'Flat 9th' is meaning that the 2nd note for D major scale is E, and so in the chord is is Eb so hence it is Flat 9th....correct? And the 'Suspended 4th' is the G. So I think I understand this.
But the seond one I don't. WHY is it down as D#/D Major 13th
I don't get this. Can someone please explain this simply to me?
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10-21-2013 07:27 AM
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You've figured out the first "name," and I would've called your voicing either that (D7b9sus4) or simply C-/D (C minor over D).
Originally Posted by elixzer
The second name looks like an oddball guess by a computer algorithm - not a very usable (or decipherable) chord name! It's easier to consider Eb, rather than D#, to see that G is the 3rd, Eb is the root, C is the 6th (or 13th), and D is the major 7th. So, maybe Ebmaj13/D, in the right context, but ...
I'm guessing you're voicing your chord like this: x-x-0-5-4-3
Another voicing option that is closer to a more common Ebmaj13 (same four notes, just a different voicing) might be:
x-6-5-5-3-x
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Those programs are mainly useful for cowboys and their chords: "so *that's* an Eb major!"
If you read Levine's The Jazz Theory Book, he loves susb9 chords.
Typical use:
Dsusb9: x5x543
GMaj7: xx5432
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OK, so the first one is another way--more simpler way--of putting down the voicing of that chord? Originally Posted by M-ster
Now your second voicing ---why? What would be the point of THAT descriptor? get me? What is use of the first if the second one seems more simple. Hope I have phrased my question OK? ...Who does it suit to see those different voicings described thus?
Yes the first tab is correct. I am not sure if I dig what else you say. Again this is what the chord-namers got D#/D Major 13th . Because I had first grapsed that it was the open D string being called root of the chord it threw me that now they were calling the root a D#...? But your throwing me even more by saying it could have used Eb---------ohhhhh it has just clicked. You mean that instead of D it could be a D# or Eb root? because they are both 'same' depending on how you are playing--what scale. etc?The second name looks like an oddball guess by a computer algorithm - not a very usable (or decipherable) chord name! It's easier to consider Eb, rather than D#, to see that G is the 3rd, Eb is the root, C is the 6th (or 13th), and D is the major 7th. So, maybe Ebmaj13/D, in the right context, but ...
I'm guessing you're voicing your chord like this: x-x-0-5-4-3
Another voicing option that is closer to a more common Ebmaj13 (same four notes, just a different voicing) might be:
x-6-5-5-3-x
The guitar-namer I am using is this one: http://jguitar.com/chordname?string5...g1=0&string0=x
Please, if you could link me to a better one I would be really grateful. I don't want to get more confused than I already am with bogus chord names.
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The trouble with those chord programs is that jazz chords can have mainly names, depending on their function. Ideally, you'd like to enter a progression of chords and have them named in that context. Never heard of a program like that, so it's up to you.
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You meant to type "many" names? Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
OK, I am trying to understand this. What I REALLY do love is the idea and actuality of voicings. So that you are expressing feeling/meaning via harmony. I LOVE notes played together which is harmony. So I am really wanting to get into this.
So you say that chord-namer is really a cowboychord-namer and is thus limited for understanding the potential of jazz voice chords? But you cannot point me to something similar that would be savvy about Jazz chords?
Hmmm so how did YOU learn then--the many names chord voicings...?.....I want to do it playing. experimenting. What advice can you (and others interested in my questions) give me?Last edited by elixzer; 10-21-2013 at 11:18 AM.
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Yes, my mistake. Before morning coffee. Originally Posted by elixzer
Here's my beef with those programs. They work fine with simple chord: C-E-G must be a C major. But what about Ab-C-F-G? That could be: Originally Posted by elixzer
Dm11b5
AbMaj13
Bb13
Fmin(add4)
etc...
What a program must do is spit out many different names for this chord. Is this helpful? I think it's better to learn to do this yourself. With grips you use often you will learn their uses, and with something more unusual, you can dissect it and discover what it is.
And what is the point to naming chords, anyway? I suppose one point is why Adam named all the creatures. The other point is to understand their function. These chord naming programs aren't helping with this second point.
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I like your reply and find it intriguing and inspiring if I understand you right Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
That the feel for the understanding of the different voicings and how chords blend into one another is via experimenting with actually playing rather than thinking that knowing a NAME of a chord will help you? And that when you find unusual voicings you can dissect it and discover what is is--as meaning how it can be good for a piece you are exploring? That means understanding their function, relationship with the other chords you are choosing to use in a piece of music?
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I like theory. Knowing some theory helps me in lots of ways, so I'm not knocking it. Originally Posted by elixzer
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Time for an afternoon coffee... Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
Not F minor (add4)...F minor with an added 9 (or 2)
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Doh!
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Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
I feel a but comin....?
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Second chord is D#min7 -5+5,B9 OR F#min6 sus4
Marc
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Doesn't matter what style you might be into Originally Posted by elixzer
The function of the chord is the same, regardless.
The chord you speak of, I would call Cm/D. It could also be called D7sus4b9...but that makes less sense when I consider the scale surrounding it, which would likely be a C minor (dorian or melodic). If for some reason a F# fits better than an F in the scale, I'd name it the latter.
The D#maj13/D could only be somewhat justified theoretically since it contains step 1, 3 and 13 from D#, and the D (which is also the maj7 of D# [or rather Eb]) as bass. The more correct way would anyway be Eb6/D.
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The function of the chord is what leads to resolution. Cm/D gives no useful harmonic info, but D7b9sus does; it tells me that you may be going to Gm, thus a G harmonic minor scale may contain the notes you need for your improv.
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Sure it does. D minor is a perfectly natural place to stay, depending on what happens next. But yes, if that G harmonic minor describes the function best on top, surely use the D7 variant. Originally Posted by ronjazz
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The standard (CST) thing to do over D7b9sus is the second mode of C melodic minor.
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It is all starting to sound a bit 'Latin' to me. Originally Posted by ronjazz
Why?D7b9sus does; it tells me that you may be going to Gm
As I said in OP, I have been playing many times a version of Carl Jobim's Insensatez which I absolutely love. The way I play it is plucking strings and using lower string as base/percussion--which is a Brazilian Bossa Nova way which I really love!
I originally discovered the fingerings/grips of the chords used by watching a YT video and then putting down the tabs. Lately I have been trying to find the chord names, but as said, some of them have different names.
So, HOW, exploring this pice and the different voicings of the chords can I get deeper insight into what is happening. SO that I could, for example, experiment with some other tunes I will come up with?
I have started using the voicings from the piece in different combinations. I am guessing that is one way.
Are there others?
All suggestions welcome.
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It seems like you're missing out on the concept of key and of chord function. Originally Posted by elixzer
As ron says, "Cm/D" is a perfectly good symbol to describe the voicing you described (D-C-Eb-G).
"D7b9sus4" is as accurate but clumsier, but also suggests a function, which is V in key of G minor. The V of G minor would normally be D7b9 (ie with an F#, not G), but sus4 could be a variant.
"D7b9sus4", therefore, suggests that any scale used on it would probably contain F#, not F.
(However, IIRC, Mark Levine mentions susb9 chords as phrygian modal chords, so D7sus4b9 - "Dsusb9" for short - for him would indicate D phrygian mode, including F, not F#. And possibly B natural, in "phrygian natural 6".)
"Cm/D", OTOH, has no such implication, it just describes the notes in the voicing. Various scales (or modes) might fit.
Yes. However, what matters about chord voicings, usually, is not how they sound individually, but how they fit between the chords either side; how they lead (note by note) from the previous chord to the next chord. Originally Posted by elixzer
By all means build a library of nice-sounding chord voicings, but always be aware of their likely function: which means not only their role in a key (major or minor), but which other chords they could fit between, to make smooth or interesting "voice-leading".
IOW, not every chord in a song has to have a clear function relative to the key (although almost all will); but - if they don't - they do need to make good transitions between other functional chords. In most kinds of music, this is much more important than how nice the chord sounds in isolation.
(In so-called "modal jazz", chords often do work individually in isolation, as single sonorities, but Jobim's music is not of this type.
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Look for function, as I say. How can you make that chord work, in relation to others? (Looking for alternative names for a voicing can sometimes help in suggesting possible uses but, as mentioned above, automatic online algorithms are not the best sources of info. Some study of basic key theory would be much more useful.) Originally Posted by elixzer
Last edited by JonR; 10-22-2013 at 06:08 AM.
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I heartily agree with everyone here who has stressed the importance of understanding the function of chords as they relate to one another in a progression and how to best voice-lead them one to another in that progession. Personally, I prefer to have a functional description (D7b9sus) first and, if necessary, a voicing suggestion (Cm/D) second.
As Ted Greene was wont to say, "No one will hire you for knowing the name of the chord, they'll hire because you know how to use the chord".
That said, the biggest problem with falling in love with a single chord because of the way it sounds in isolation or trying to develop a deep understanding of harmony from a strictly experimental/experiential method is that it can lead to a lot of wasted time that could be saved by simply learning a bit of music theory. It doesn't take long to learn enough theory to understand root movement and chord movement particularly as it relates to the structure of songs such as Insensatez and those in the Great American Songbook. By the way, Jobim based Insensatez on Chopin's Prelude, Opus 28 No. 4, so a little familiarity with classical music can come in handy as well.
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OK, so right there. What is difference between 'function' and 'voicing'--put simply. ALWAYS as simple as poss Originally Posted by monk
I have no intention of playing with other musicians. So this means I have more freedom to explore in a unique way. That may sound wrong cause it seems to imply those who play with others dont and i know they do, and can imagine it is VERY skilful. But the REALITY is its going to be me on guitar exploring this styff. Just thought I'd let you know.As Ted Greene was wont to say, "No one will hire you for knowing the name of the chord, they'll hire because you know how to use the chord".
That said, the biggest problem with falling in love with a single chord because of the way it sounds in isolation or trying to develop a deep understanding of harmony from a strictly experimental/experiential method is that it can lead to a lot of wasted time that could be saved by simply learning a bit of music theory. It doesn't take long to learn enough theory to understand root movement and chord movement particularly as it relates to the structure of songs such as Insensatez and those in the Great American Songbook. By the way, Jobim based Insensatez on Chopin's Prelude, Opus 28 No. 4, so a little familiarity with classical music can come in handy as well.
OH that is VERY interesting that you say--what influenced Insensatez. I will check that out!
Alright lety me ask. Say I find a melody I like on top two strings...? That is how you find melody, right? Now, say I want to experiment with adding harmony to these little melody--what is best way? Starting little at first. I am curious.
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Haven't read the thread, but I thought I might mention something I came across recently. I'm working out a chord solo for a Strauss aria and there are a lot of slash chords. But I've been warned that since it is not jazz, for a X/Y chord with a "nonchordal member" in the bass, either the Y is not a chord tone, or most or all of the notes in the X are not chord tones!
Last edited by jster; 10-22-2013 at 12:45 PM.
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I hope some of this may be of help. Originally Posted by elixzer
OK, so right there. What is difference between 'function' and 'voicing'--put simply. ALWAYS as simple as poss
Function-How does the chord fit into the progression? What is it doing there? In other words, where it came from and where is it going or how does it relate to the following chord. That's the reason it's called a chord progression. It starts somewhere, it goes somewhere and it ends somewhere.
Voicing-The order of the notes in the actual chord from bottom to top. 1,3,5,7 0r 5,3,7,1 and so on.
I have no intention of playing with other musicians. So this means I have more freedom to explore in a unique way. That may sound wrong cause it seems to imply those who play with others dont and i know they do, and can imagine it is VERY skilful. But the REALITY is its going to be me on guitar exploring this styff. Just thought I'd let you know.
Regardless of your intentions, even solo performers who never play with other people follow certain guidelines inherent in music. By all means explore but it's important to realize that a little knowledge can go a long way toward helping you really understand music and how it works.
OH that is VERY interesting that you say--what influenced Insensatez. I will check that out!
Alright let me ask. Say I find a melody I like on top two strings...? That is how you find melody, right? Now, say I want to experiment with adding harmony to these little melody--what is best way? Starting little at first. I am curious.
Your statement leads me to believe that you think you "find" a melody on the first two strings as if it's something that is hidden there or by "experimenting", i.e. trying various combinations of notes until you arrive at a combination that pleases you. I believe that the best melodies begin in the head and then end up on the instrument.
At this point, I'll say that you can choose to ignore the small amount of information you need to acquire in order to understand how this stuff works but learning it can save you months or even years of "hit or miss" attempts at constructing meaningful sounds.
I'll end with one of my favorite George Van Eps quotes from Harmonic Mechanisms for Guitar.
"Luck won't do it and ignorance can't".
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what information? where is it?
At this point, I'll say that you can choose to ignore the small amount of information you need to acquire in order to understand how this stuff works but learning it can save you months or even years of "hit or miss" attempts at constructing meaningful sounds.
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