-
My Questions: In any given chart, how faithfully should one follow the written chords in terms of alterations? Does that approach change with the line-up/size of the ensemble?
Example: For W.Shorter's "Black Nile" Aebersold writes out D- to E7#4, but other charts just have Dm6 to E7 and some have Dm7 to E7.
In my early days, i would just skate by without any alterations and in early swing tunes that seems to work fine. Obviously, Aebersold put that #4 in there for a reason, and i realize that reason is often to be consonant with the melody line or a certain "color".
But how much leeway do you have when everyone's using the same chart? And some charts have specific alterations for comping the soloist?
Disclaimer: After years of study, i realize that most Jazz answers are either "Does it sound good?" or "It depends..." So consider that as understood.
-
08-06-2013 05:09 PM
-
Well my answer would be that D- E7 would be most vanilla and you could then add the alterations and extentions you wish to use. However during a Wayne Shorter composition I think the #4 (#11) would be good to use. All of the mentioned chords do not really clash so there is no conflict of interest. However I do know standards where I have this problem - which changes do we use? A few standards with different changes could be How Deep Is The Ocean, Have You Met Miss Jones, I remember you and probably a ton others.
-
You really have to think about harmonic environments, implications, and of course, how much melody dictates how the chart is written.
When you're unsure (as in, you don't know the tune) extensions are "handle with care." If you have the melody (or your ears can pick up things like a raised 11th on a dominant chord you can be more sure of the "environment." So for example here, you might be able to infer that second chord as implying a lydian dominant environment, just as that first chord implies say, tonic minor...
I seem to remember seeing a chart for this that goes D- to Eb7(this is a tune I've listened to many times and considered learning but for whatever reason, haven't)..I haven't played the tune really though, but if I think of an E7#11 and an Eb7 and what they have in common I can dig there's a specific sound--the A in Dm to the A#/Bb in the second chord...that's another important implication...
I'm rambling now...sorry...I guess my thing is to always err on the side of caution when unsu4re, but also to really train your ears to hear what different extensions sound like against chords, maybe particularly dominants.
Listening is sooo important. Going in cold on Shorter tunes is TOUGH.
-
Don't you mean Dm to Eb7#4? Function means everything.
Originally Posted by Tommycorsica
-
Well, now I listened...that A in the melody carries over the bar...I'm not feelin' any kind of E7 in bar two.
-
There are a few answers, depending on your level of playing, your ears and your understandings of jazz harmony.
Vanilla... doesn't work, you'll sound like a classical or rock player trying to cover jazz tunes.
There are very standard harmonic implications from changes along with what the melody implies. In your example, I think you mean... D- to Eb7 ? right... which is really just Imin to V7 altered... so the vanilla version of bII7 (the standard sub of V7), doesn't cut it harmonically. And even if your using a modal concept approach... The D- to Eb7 being a modal interchange approach to III- to IV maj modal sound and common chord pattern used through out many jazz tunes...
Anyway very rarely are straight V7 chords used...
As far as what changes to use when covering jazz tunes, it's not just the changes, chords or changes imply Jazz chord patterns, One chord may really imply two or more chords... called chord patterns. The chord patterns you choose are designed to imply different common practice jazz harmonic approaches. There are always choices, more than one possible harmonic approach... Vanilla is also a harmonic choice... just not a very good one.
If you want to get into a little more detail... I'll be glad to help...
Reg
-
As mentioned above, it's Eb7, not E7. Originally Posted by Tommycorsica
As such - as Reg says - Eb7 is a sub for the V of Dm, which is A7. Tritone subs tend to have #4s (#11) by implication, so that's what you might call a "common practice", or common assumption. You wouldn't need to add the #11 to your chord shape (plain Eb7 would do), but you'd expect to hear it (and use it) in solos. (The scale is the same as the A altered scale.)
Likewise "Dm6" is usually shorthand for a minor tonic, implying either dorian or melodic minor (probably more often the latter). "Dm7", OTOH, would usually imply dorian - although of course it allows aeolian. If in doubt, obviously a plain Dm triad is safest (no risk of different 7ths or 6ths clashing).
-
The melody as Mr. B mentioned is A, but more important... the tune is full of Shorters block compositional style with his standard Modal Interchange usage. He always sets up common chord patterns then use something to deceptively camouflage basic harmonic structure of tune.
I could make standard Jazz analysis.. which would work around the melody, common jazz harmonic practice and what the possibilities could be... there are always a few. But really with Shorter tunes and most jazz tunes, even pop standards, it's like the harmony or changes are alive.... each chorus can have different approaches.
Every chord can become a tonal center as well as being related to tunes tonal center. That D- can have any and all minor references and their possible relationships. Usually a few are going on at the same time.
Think of how you take a melody and then develop that melody over the same changes... Now swap the rolls... take the harmony, the chords and develop the changes over the same melody..... you would be starting to understand how jazz harmony can function.
Just as there millions of melodic development techniques, possible relationships and their developments, there are also millions of harmonic techniques, possible relationships and developments, actually more.
Again long answer short... Vanilla doesn't work unless that's what you choose to play.
As Jon mentioned above...D-6 could be shorthand for a few implied harmonic references... Generally most Jazz charts are shorthand for what you should be playing. You need to know jazz tunes, to know the common jazz practice chord patterns that are implied or can be implied.
It doesn't happen over night and will never happen unless to work on it.
The other side, many don't really care to play in a jazz style, nothing wrong with that.
Reg
-
Sorry to crash the party but out of curiosity as to what you guys were cogitating about, I pulled up Black Nile as the original recording on Blue Note by Wayne Shorter, as Jon R pointed out, the change is Dmin7 to Ebmaj7 as I hear it. What's the big deal? If you want to think of it as a triton sub, fine. But what is the discussion about? What mode to play?
I would add that as the song progresses, the piano outlines more sophisticated chordal changes, but if I had Transcribe to listen attentively, one could easily write the changes out in detail including the trumpet solo. Beautiful tune but not out of sight by any means.Last edited by targuit; 08-06-2013 at 09:09 PM.
-
Well, it's a dominant chord, not a maj7, but the original question is pretty much right there in bold in the OP.
-
You hear a dominant Eb7?? I respectfully disagree.
-
You hear a dominant Eb7?? I respectfully disagree. First of all, E7#4, whatever the hell that is (perhaps E7b5?), is incorrect. I hear a distinct maj7 quality over the Eb, but maybe I'm wrong. I doubt it.
Listen to the piano solo over the changes. Hear the maj7s. Of course the solos dance around the enclosures of the half step differentiates the Eb7 from the Ebmaj7.Last edited by targuit; 08-06-2013 at 09:24 PM.
-
I'll have to listen closer, butthere's half step movement in those chords, so there's some overlap...hence the analysis...those chords aren't around for very long...you can try to deliberately hit chord tones over them or think about the harmonic environment the changes imply.
I'm gonna learn this tune and work through it, I'll be able to give a better explanation.
-
Again, this song would not be difficult to score out entirely if you have Transcribe or something to slow down the tempo a bit to comfortably score out the subtle chordal changes that develop over the Dm7 - Eb7(maj7) vamp. Even the solos are not daunting, but slowing it down would make transcribing a lot easier. To my mind this is definitely a song for a band rather than a solo CM piece. Nice harmonic development.
I have to admit that I don't think modal issues with a song like this - I just go for the notes as played. Easier on the mind.Last edited by targuit; 08-06-2013 at 10:04 PM.
-
FWIW, I hear it as Eb7, not maj7 - at least in the A section.
I agree this is not a modal tune, it sounds fully functional to me: key of D minor (Eb7#11 a tritone sub for A7), with a modulation to Eb major in the bridge.
-
Yes, it's Dm7 to Eb7#11 (#4 in Aebersold's quirky code.) Sorry for the E7 curve ball.
Big Thanks to Reg, Mr. B and JonR. That clears up a lot for me, about charts, about Shorter compositions and about manipulating harmony and building a repetoire of common chord patterns. And here i was thinking, "I can play a few Wayne Shorter tunes, maybe I can leave the woodshed in by the end of the year..."
*Either of you three guys come thru NYC, let me know and i'll buy you a beer or walk you to Rudy's guitars.
On Wayne Shorter -- I'd seen him in 1982 with Weather Report (and Jaco!) up at Saratoga Jazz Festival. But I had little interest in his work, despite his great reputation. But now, I'm just blown away by his compositions and playing, certainly his Blue Note years. I'm in a WShorter summer ensemble workshop - a guaranteed arse-kicking every session - but when we're warmed up and grooving, those songs are both sublime and powerful.
For those in the audience, i recommend:
Speak No Evil
Adam's Apple
Night Dreamer
Black Nile
Footprints
and Ana Maria
-
I agree - Wayne Shorter is probably my favourite jazz composer. As well as Ana Maria, I like Infant Eyes, Black Narcissus, This Is For Albert, Footprints, and the more recent Alegria album.
-
Most of the charts, especially the Real Books are intended to be easy guidelines that you can change to suit your own approach to a song. The melody plays a very important role in deciding what changes to use.
wiz
-
For real basic changes to most jazz standards, this is a good site:
Index
- maybe too basic, but worth comparing wth Real Book versions (which are transcribed from specific recordings, so not set in stone).
Backing tracks too:
Backing Tracks
(Not much Wayne Shorter, however...
)
-
Thanks Wizard - That's how i understood Real Book charts. But per Reg's response, it seems one needs to be able to recognize chord patterns or structures (beyond the ii-V and I-VI-ii-V, etc.) and just know what extensions are needed to turn the vanilla into something more appealing. Aebersold is just doing the work for me, by writing out the extensions.
-
OK... we might be getting somewhere... how jazz is played. When we verbally talk about changes, use roman numerals to imply function... anyway, it's all very cute and really mainly a lot of BS. It's... academia not much relationship to being on the road playing jazz.
I'm very comfortable being in both worlds because I've worked in both worlds. But when you play jazz... there's no making transcriptions... rehearsals etc... as I said the charts are just basic guidelines, all the BS has to go, you can play or...
With Black Nile... if you choose or someone else decides to play D- to Ebmaj... that would imply some type of modal relationship... III- to IVmaj as the starting reference. The tune can still and usually does go harmonically many places, but that is a very clear example of a starting reference for CREATING RELATIONSHIPS and developing them.
I personally would hear... cool so this is the approach we're going to start with. That being Modal with modal interchange relationships starting with that III- , IVmaj ... I'm not just going to use Dominant functional relationships with reference to Maj/Min functional harmony. Obviously the melody has implications also... the further down the line of harmonic and melodic development I get... the starting relationship would still be Modal and Modal interchange influenced. That can and usually changes... at any moment. Part of being able to play jazz is being able to make or hear these changes with very little info. Very different from making analysis of chart and verbally talking about a four bar phrase.
I don't really go through this thought process, I don't need to, it's very common jazz practice.
I'm not trying to get down on aebersold charts... but there are many physical mistakes and miss many of the harmonic references all together. But I guess they work well for practice...
I also agree with those of you who dig Shorter... I believe he's one of the most influential composers of jazz... still.
Reg
Reply With Quote
Thomastik Jazz BeBop 12 set - $10.
Today, 06:35 AM in For Sale