Barry Harris guitar book

[guitarplayer007]

You would think they would have 100's of examples how to use this method over the most common chord progression in jazz 2-5-1 yet for the life of me i don't see one example. The only real good example i ever saw was from someone who had nothing to do with the book, I think his name was Mike Stone..He gave a view examples that were really cool. Yes this book does none of that....mind boggling...lol

[monk]

This book is about harmonic motion, playing through chord progressions by moving voices like a piano player not by playing isolated chord grips.

On page 30, under More Movement in paragraph two Alan says "Two/Five/One exists on sheet music. We need to 'use [these] little things" as Barry says, to avoid the 'the two chord, five chord, one chord' prison-like stasis of jazz interpretation".

There is also a transcription of Alan playing Like Someone In Love that has practical applications of using the method to play two-fives.

The information is there but it does require focused, thoughtful practice.

[guitarplayer007]

You would still think they could have taked some common chord progressions used in many standards and said, these are examples of how to use the home and away chords over the first say 4 measures of Misty. But they really don't give any real examples thats why i'm confounded. I mean even Rick Stone who didn't write the book had better and more examples of how to apply this method.
My 2 cents
k

[docbop]

You would still think they could have taked some common chord progressions used in many standards and said, these are examples of how to use the home and away chords over the first say 4 measures of Misty. But they really don't give any real examples thats why i'm confounded. I mean even Rick Stone who didn't write the book had better and more examples of how to apply this method.
My 2 cents
k

I have the same complaint about the book. For me an example clarifies the text and gives me a point to start my experimenting with. I find this common with people talking about Barry Harris Approach including Barry Harris himself they make a statement then move past it with minimal explanation. Rick Stone's came from the Barry Harris approach. but he's not teaching Barry Harris approach, but his teaching seems to explain things from a Barry Harris POV.

For those not familiar with Rick Stone he's excellent guitarist in N.Y. and teacher. I've never had a lesson with him, but his website/blog has lots of very interesting materials and videos worth checking out.

Rick Stone - one of the finest straight-ahead guitarists on the current NYC jazz scene (20th Century Guitar)

[guitarplayer007]

thanks Docbop,

This book could have opened up so many doors, but it just has 1 chord grid after another with zero examples on how to use it over common chord progression, what a shame could have been a great book
k

[srlank]

You would think they would have 100's of examples how to use this method over the most common chord progression in jazz 2-5-1 yet for the life of me i don't see one example. The only real good example i ever saw was from someone who had nothing to do with the book, I think his name was Mike Stone..He gave a view examples that were really cool. Yes this book does none of that....mind boggling...lol

Thx Ken. I haven't checked this out, but it's always nice to hear an honest and respectful report of online materials.

[guitarplayer007]

Your welcome Srlank,
It still makes me crazy because i'm sure this method would be great for comping and chord melody as well, but as previously stated their aren't any reall good examples or exercises in the entire book. I bet this could have been a huge seller, but as you see on this forum almost know one ever recomends...yet we want to comp with alot more chord movement then just playing inversions. This book could have done that if it really explained in detail. For instance they start out with Fmaj6 chords, do they even tell you that you don't use that over F chords? nope enough of my Rant, they should redo the book.

[srlank]

Well it sounds like you are keeping a sense of humor at least.

For me it's crazy in general trying to sift through all of the stuff that's available online and figure out what is going to be worth the time and money. Like they say, one person's trash is another person's treasure; but it's still nice to hear recommendations (or in this case, non-recommendations) from other folks. I got a hold of a big, fat Van-Eps book recently, and it has lots of moving voices. But I haven't worked with it enough to discuss.

Anyways, best of luck to you, and let us know if you manage to strike gold somewhere!

[bako]

I think you are referring to the Alan Kingstone book.
Alan has occasionally posted here and has been very generous answering questions and sharing his knowledge.
I would recommend contacting him to ask suggestions as to how to apply this approach to common harmonic situations, if this is not already clear from the books content.

Why do you say Fma6 is usable in an F major environment.....???

[guitarplayer007]

Because its really a Dm7 if you look at the chords

[bako]

I meant to say "Why do you say Fma6 is unusable in an F major environment"?

Fma6 has the same notes as Dm7 but a ma6 chord is a real entity.
Range plays into our perception, in the lowest guitar octave FCDA and CFAD sound more like a Fma6 and ADFC and DACF sound more like Dm7. From the middle register up it is more ambiguous. Context and bass motion is a determining factor.
In some older jazz styles ma6 is more common than ma7.

[guitarplayer007]

That might be the case, but the book is poorly conceived and again no real examples how to use in any song that a jazzplayer might play.

[srlank]

Went to check it out thinking maybe it would be good for a study group......easier to decipher with more people. It's mostly got great reviews, but the price is $40.00.

[monk]

For instance they start out with Fmaj6 chords, do they even tell you that you don't use that over F chords?

Of course you can. Why couldn't you?

Because its really a Dm7 if you look at the chords

Whether or not a chord is an F6 or a Dm7 depends on the the context in which it's being used. Since the notes are the same in both chords, what it is or what it's named depends on where it's it moving to.

Your comments are starting to make me think that the problem is not with the book. If you don't understand that F6 and Dm7 are homonyms and can be substituted for one another, you may have floated into a deeper end of the pool than you're used to.

If you have problems with this book, the George Van Eps books will drive you crazy.

[guitarplayer007]

First off i don't go be reviews, anyone can be paid for a review, secondly I want a comment from someone who has the book, not speculation based on what i said. I will say it again, they don't give any real examples of use this method of connecting chords using a diminished chords .

[A. Kingstone]

For use on two five ones please see the chapter entitled Playing With Your Sisters And Brothers.

Alan.

007. Sorry you're so frustrated with the book.

[Moonray]

Hey 007, and others


For use of concepts in the Barry Harris Harmonic Method for Guitar with a standard tune,
see pgs 80-81 of the Barry Harris Harmonic Method for Guitar.





....followed by a blow by blow commentary on the devices used in the 2 chorus example.

Thanks for your response Alan, I'm getting heaps out of your book.

Have watched Barry Harris' classes on DVD...that could be of some of some advantage.

I liked the quote in the Appendix regarding the balance of left and right hand on guitar.

Something to the effect that we may finesse with our picking hand but we must swing with our fretting hand.
....."Guitars should lead the rest of us. Guitarists should be showing us things."

And that from Barry Harris hisself!

Alan, I wonder could you venture your take on that remark?

...Or maybe it's best left in that zen-like space that many jazz sayings from the masters dwell.

[A. Kingstone]

Moonray. Thanks for your thoughtful comments. As to Barry's comment about guitarists showing pianists things, I can't be in the mind of the master but perhaps it speaks to his respect for the guitar and the harmonic possibilities. He always speaks glowingly of Pasquale Grosso, an amazing player.

[Moonray]

I thought that was a big ask Alan.

Pasquale is indeed a wonderful player, it'll be interesting to see how he develops.
...I see him via Smalls Live feed taking the Friday jam sessions.

I was blown away when I first came across him on YouTube doing Bud Powell....whew!
He seems to have had a deep grounding in classical guitar.
Also he appears to use pretty light strings [which would be easier on the right hand....and give a clearer separation
of voices]

Did Pasquale have any input from Barry?

....And re your book, I found the "Long-Short" way of looking at open vs close voiced chords
a helpful peep into the piano player's take on practicalities of voicings.

...I've always thought it annoying/amusing how we guitarists have to stretch for close voicings,
whereas keyboard players have it [sort of] easy in that dept.....

...And vice versa, that open voicings are often a breeze for us while our keyboard friends have to
work a bit more.

Unfortunately for me I have a love of tight harmony and clusters ala Bill Evans ....so it's been a matter of diluting
chords down to 3 notes, often on string set 3-1 or 4-2 so as to get that crucial interval of a second in the middle
while trying to get enough chord info in there to give the feel of the harmony.

This thread has got me working on my harmonic chops again....and getting the BH Harmonic Method off the shelf,
...and it is proof positive that I'm only scratching the surface.....
As you said perhaps Barry's point.

[guitarplayer007]

For use on two five ones please see the chapter entitled Playing With Your Sisters And Brothers.

Alan.

007. Sorry you're so frustrated with the book.

You would think there would be more then 4 pages on using it over 2-5-1 the most common chord progression. But again they really don't get into much in this book. I see use Eb6 instead of cm7, which is the same chord them move to a Adim...thats all they show.
ok thx anyway
any

[TH]

Hey 007, thanks for turning me on to this book, I should really check it out. It may be that it's not the right book for you right now. I think your time could be spent on another book. Some books really spell things out, give you very specific examples of what to play and where on the neck to find it. Is that what would be helpful for you? If so, there are some good books that might be recommended.
Sometimes when players are looking for options beyond the strictly playable examples, ie. original concepts for improvisation, it's actually detrimental at that point to have very specific examples; it's not productive to be told what fundamental ideas to play and where they should be played. But as you very effectively point out, it's not where everyone is at right now.

What is an example of a book you've worked with that has been good for you? Something like the Hotlicks series? Something that has examples of bebop phrases written out? Maybe we can find some better books for your approach to the subject.

Maybe not, I don't know a lot on the topic myself... still struggling.
David

[djangoles]

Excellent book....I thought it was a little rough at first....you have re-orient your thinking a little, but it's well worth it.

Every year or so I break out the Van Epps book and give it a whirl only to give up in frustration. I always get confused by his string set naming conventions.... Broken Divided etc...the one instance where I'd love to see something in tab.

[jojo]

Hi everybody out there,

I'm considering buying Alan's video lessons on Jazz School Online, hoping that it would help me comping with more movement. I discovered Pascale Grasso tonight thanks to Alan's comment on this page and one can easily imagine that he is comping on a piano, very impressive.

Does anyone here study on Jazz School Online ? Could you tell me more on these videos ?

[monk]

Excellent book....I thought it was a little rough at first....you have re-orient your thinking a little, but it's well worth it.

Every year or so I break out the Van Epps book and give it a whirl only to give up in frustration. I always get confused by his string set naming conventions.... Broken Divided etc...the one instance where I'd love to see something in tab.

djangoles,
I agree that Van Eps' string set names can be confusing at first but with steady deliberate practice you'll get used to them. Breaking the book out once a year and then giving up in frustration won't get it done. But you already know that.

Years before Harmonic Mechanisms was released I worked with the original George Van Eps Guitar Method. The major scale exercises in Guitar Method were given only in first inversion; it was necessary to convert the exercises to root position and second inversion in order to learn to use them. Just as it was necessary to write out the exercises in the book in all keys. Van Eps fixed that in Harmonic Mechanisms by providing all inversions in all keys.

I have a file folder full of observations, notations and diagrams that I've made from GVE's books. My books have notes written in the margins and sections highlighted. I would suggest you might do the same. Use fingerboard diagrams, TAB paper or whatever you need to get the information off the page and into your head, ears and hands. Rename the string sets to make them more easily recognizable to you.

For me, the best part of working with Van Eps' books has been those moments when the lights go on and I realise how to take what had been an exercise and use it to play music. It isn't easy but it's always been worth the time spent.

Sometimes the only thing we can do is roll up our sleeves, wade in and sweat it out. That is if we really want it badly enough.

Regards,
Jerome

[djangoles]

djangoles,
I agree that Van Eps' string set names can be confusing at first but with steady deliberate practice you'll get used to them. Breaking the book out once a year and then giving up in frustration won't get it done. But you already know that.

Years before Harmonic Mechanisms was released I worked with the original George Van Eps Guitar Method. The major scale exercises in Guitar Method were given only in first inversion; it was necessary to convert the exercises to root position and second inversion in order to learn to use them. Just as it was necessary to write out the exercises in the book in all keys. Van Eps fixed that in Harmonic Mechanisms by providing all inversions in all keys.

I have a file folder full of observations, notations and diagrams that I've made from GVE's books. My books have notes written in the margins and sections highlighted. I would suggest you might do the same. Use fingerboard diagrams, TAB paper or whatever you need to get the information off the page and into your head, ears and hands. Rename the string sets to make them more easily recognizable to you.

For me, the best part of working with Van Eps' books has been those moments when the lights go on and I realise how to take what had been an exercise and use it to play music. It isn't easy but it's always been worth the time spent.

Sometimes the only thing we can do is roll up our sleeves, wade in and sweat it out. That is if we really want it badly enough.

Regards,
Jerome

Yea as much as I'd like to get through it a bit, I know it will never happen.....I just don't have the time to devote to it like you really have to....(the actual mechanical portion)

I do like the Barry Harris stuff because it's a little more conceptual and can be applied easily to piano which I've been playing a lot more of purely for composing.