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Ken,
I told you to use F6o - dm6o - C6o. Like Alan stated in this thread, F6o chord scale for Dm7. When you have a ii chord think a minor third above to find the correct chord scale which is F6o in this case. Next, for an unaltered sound think a minor third down from F6 and you have dm6o. You have to use m6o for the V chord. If you want an altered sound think a minor third up from F6o and you have am6o. Hope this helps.
Gary
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07-31-2013 07:41 AM
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Gary,
This is what you wrote to me:
" For dm7 use the F6 dim scale. For the V chord (G7) you use a min6 dim scale a 5th above which would be dm6 dim scale. For the I chord (Cmaj7 or 6) use the C6 dim scale. So for dm7-G7-CMaj7 you would use F6-dm6-C6. I'll answer any questions you might have. This is just the beginning but it's where you start."
So I was practicing just putting a Static Dm7 chord in band in a box and using the F6Dim scale and the F6 Inversions sound fine of course because they really are Dm7, but the Dimisnished chords in bewteen don't sound that great, am i doing something wrong?
Thanks
ken
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try playing the diminished chord on weak beats at first.
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Remember, the F6 is home and the related dim. chord is away. The dim. chord always wants to resolve back home. Here is an exercise I give my students. Play F6 and go down to the related dim. chord and back to F6. Now go to the next F6 chord and do the same thing etc. Now play F6 and go up to the related dim. chord and back home to F6. etc. Now play F6 and ascend to the dim. chord and to the next inversion of F6 etc. This will help you hear the home and away relationship.
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Ok but your talking about the Dim chords that are in between the inversions...correct?
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Dam I wish i could do a screen print of what I mean...lol
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(?) Please explain or elaborate. I hung out with Barry Harris for 2 days, and played with him also. He told me all about his major and minor 6th dim approach to harmony. That doesn't make me an expert, but I feel I "got" the concept.
Originally Posted by hodge12
I've been listening to Wes for 40 years, and have transcribed his solos, and even taught a class on Wes at UofM back in the early '80's, and I just don't see the connection between Wes's approach and Barry's Mm6th dim approach. (other than- they are both great players)
Would you please enlighten me? Thanks.
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Thanks Docbop will download it tonight, this shouldn't be that hard to just get some simple exercises over 2-5-1
I already have the Alan Kingston Book on this info, is that different then whats on the link you provided?
ken
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It's just a barebones explanation of the BH concept written for piano so easy to see where the chords are coming from. Last part of book talks about the chord scale. No exercises, but a couple basic examples with chord symbols so you can see and hear what's going on. If you have access to piano the stuff is pretty simple, find a piano player to play it for you, or back to Kingston book for chord voicings.
This stuff is a concept to experiment with find sounds yourself from applying the concept.
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As far as it's use in 2-5-1, I don't think it really relates in the way you're looking for. It gives movement to more static harmony.
Of course the relative Maj6 chord is a perfect inversion of the m7 chord, but if you use the m6 chord instead (of course this can be led to from m7) then you get the same chord as the relative 2 chord, being m7b5, it's easy to remember cos' they're both 6th intervals, C is to Am as Dm6 is to Bm7b5, as is DMaj to Bm of course. Also a m7b5 chord can be thought of as a 7#5b9 chord without the root, more possibilities for minor 2-5-1, and the m6/m7b5 voicing's lead very simply into diminished chords functioning as V7.
This way of thinking may be how you can apply something to 2-5-1, and add movement between the chords. So I guess in regards to 2-5-1 and how to apply it, for me at least it's all in the conversion process of using chords as other chords, drop voicing's are certainly what it's all about, get em' all down and you'll see the possibilities, I'm right in the middle of it all now, the tunnel is long but the light is bright as can be.
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Originally Posted by JPMike
The book can be purchased directly from the publisher here:
The Barry Harris Harmonic Method for Guitar | Jazz Workshops
Also available through Aebersold.Last edited by A. Kingstone; 08-30-2013 at 12:28 PM.
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But why would I buy this other book when I already have the Barry Harris Harmonic Method? It's really amazing How Rick Stone has better examples on his Website then are in the book . And i know he was a Student of Barry's
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Alan, Originally Posted by A. Kingstone
I thought you wrote the book?
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Originally Posted by A. Kingstone
Thanks Alan, so do I , but not one person so far can really show or explain how to use it.
But thanks for trying.
ken
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The fact that Most Jazz is either 2-5-1 or 6-2-5-1 , I see comments thats it;s not really about using over 2-5-1 and I say to myself , how can that be since I play Jazz Standards in a band and it's all 2-5-1 or turn arounds of 1-6-2-5 or 3-2-6-5 with alterations.
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I can't speak for others, but here's an example of how I try to incorporate the approach in a ii V7 I VI7 (bIII7) in G, one for bar each chord. Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
Over the Amin7 all chords come from the C6dim Scale
Over the D7 all chords come from Am6dim Scale for first half of the bar, Ebm6dim for the second half.
Over the G I used the same basic movement on all 5 or 6 passes for ref....D6, Do, G6, Go, G6, Co (B7 or D7) G6 Do (E7)...
Played slowly in a Neil Hefti "Lil Darling" block chord type of thing....Only used a quick half step approach once or twice I think...
Recorded this quickly yesterday morning....Just got back from a month long vacation so a little sloppy, questionable choice on a chord or two and repeated the last pass twice trying to play something I didn't nail either time, but I wanted it to be more on the fly anyhow.
I should point out and I've said it before... I didn't get too far with this stuff until I started harmonizing the scale and borrowing notes....and looking for different ways to connect them. Any of the voicings I played could have been derived without all this 6thdim talk....but like the Rick Stone article you put up "the sixth diminished can provide the musical glue to hold your ideas together."
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Thanks Djangoles,
I really appreciate you going to the trouble to explain and record for me. What i want from someone who really gets this stuff is to make a video and in a 2-5-1 in C... here are some ideas over the 2 chord, here are some ideas over the 5 and so .
BTW that sounded really cool Djangoles
Thanks again, you gave me some insight into the sounds you can make.
ken
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Nice playing there Djangoles!
2-5-1 is just what it is, why change it? I have also read somewhere, Barry Harris saying that 2-5-1 is not the point, that the point is to NOT play 2-5-1. That said if you're gonna play with other musos they're not all gonna be hip to this concept so 2-5-1 is going to be the name of the game, besides there's a lot you can do with 2-5-1 anyway without this concept.
I mean what can you do with a 2 chord? it's a m7 or m6 etc, if you've got that down with all you're drop voicing's you've got heaps of stuff going on.. it's still just a 2 chord, you can create tension and release by treating it as a tonic minor chord, but does this really help you in 2-5-1? You can't change 2-5-1, use substitute chords, but it's still either going to be, or NOT be 2-5-1.
Also, using F6 in place of Dm7 is not all that it's about. It's about the smaller movements, often inner movements between the chords, leading to the next chord, if you haven't got this down without using the Barry Harris idea then I'd suggest starting here, like Djangoles said, much can be done without the Barry Harris idea, and can sound really great.
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You're Welcome.....I can come up with some things in C....but probably won't happen until Sunday. I have gigs Fri and Saturday. Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
Until then....here's how I interpreted the Block Chords I played during first pass... 0:03 - 0:13
Amin7 = (Cmaj6dim scale)
Cmaj, E7#9(NO ROOT), G/A BASS, G7b913(NO ROOT), G/Ab BASS
D7 = (Amin6dim scale) Ebmin6dim scale
D9(NO ROOT), D13(NO ROOT), Amin (w/quick half step approach from above), Ebminmaj7
Gmaj = (Gmaj6thdim scale)
D6, Do, G6, Go, G6, Co (B7 or D7,) G6, Do (E7)
I have to say as boring as it may get, harmonizing the scale MAJ6 and MIN6 to DIM etc....all over the neck is pretty important to get down not because it's what you would play, but because it opens up the fretboard to options for movement wherever you are. Once you work it through other keys you see that all your borrowing options especially with the DIM (since in reality there are really only 3) are basically the same with minor adjustments to whatever key center you're in....
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Very pretty Djangoles.
Good examples of 6th on the 5th to 6th on the tonic too.
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Very rough version of me trying to show what I'm think for 2-5-1 in C
Please I'll take all suggestions and also let me know if I'm on the right track.
Thx
Ken
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On the right track.
Think of your G7, which you called Bm7b5 as Dm6 Diminished (same chord).
Try the same thing with Abm6 dim for an altered sound on G7.
Try landing on G6 as your C. (See chapter on Sixth On The Fifth in Kingstone)
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Originally Posted by A. Kingstone
Thanks Alan,
Do you have any lessons on that online site that deals specifically with this chord movement?
Thx
Ken
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Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
Had a quick look and lesson 8 & 14 deal with two/five/one and one/six/two/five.
Ken I think if you start moving those scales in your vid rhythmically you'll find some good results.
Try each inversion of F6 to the closest Abm6 to C and then try linking up and moving between inversions.
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Thanks Alan, Originally Posted by A. Kingstone
When you say Abm6 to C you mean C6 I assume?
So the F6 is the 2 chord or Dm7, use Abm6 is for G7? then use C6 for Cmaj?
Thanks for you help, I really want to learn this becaue I'm sicj of playing static chords.
Ken
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