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Ok, so, I had what I thought I understood to be how chords are built and named.
I thought that say, an Em13 would be comprised of only notes that would be standard in the minor scale. So, for the 13, I expected to see a C and not a C#.
Why is it that in every chord example I see for an Em13, I am seeing a C#? I'd understand if it was an EmM13.
Signed,
Confused.
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04-17-2013 08:10 AM
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Because all chord naming comes from the major scale, even for minor chords.
The C natural is a flat sixth. C# is the sixth.
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Gotcha. So the only assumed exclusively minor scale notes in a minor chord are the 3rd and 7th? Would that hold true for modal playing as well? Say if I was playing in E Aeolian. Would still call out the 13th as flat if I wanted to have the C and not the C#?
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Thanks!
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Right...Aeolian has the flat 6...the C. If there's a C# in the chord, Dorian or MM are the better choice.
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Two approaches to deriving chords:
Start with a formula that is then applied to the major scale.
1 b3 5 b7 13
C D E F G A B
C E G B A becomes C Eb G Bb A
The other approach is extracting harmonies that exist within a given scale.
Major: ma7 m7 m7 ma7 7th m7 m7b5
Melodic minor: mMa7 m7 ma7+ 7th 7th m7b5 m7b5
etc.
What scale is Cm13 drawn from?
Bb major most likely choice. Contains 1 b3 5 b7 9 11 13
alternatives:
Bb melodic minor has 1 b3 5 b7 13 and b9 (Db) and 11 (F)
G harmonic minor has 1 b3 5 b7 13 and 9 (D) and #11 (F#)
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So, if I understand you correctly, then the Em13 will have a C# and an Emb13 will have a C. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
When dealing in the Aeolean mode, would the name of the chord with the C still be Emb13?
What I am digging at here is whether or not the chord name changes based on the scale approach.
Even though the Aeolean scale dictates that the 13th interval is a C, would I still call that a flatted 13?
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I think I follow. I am still stuck in the notion that a minor scale is on its own and I am seeing the intervals as 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, etc instead of 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, b6, 7, etc Originally Posted by bako
I just didn't realize that the major scale picks back up after the normal flats.
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Yes. Aeolian may be the "natural minor," but it's not the most common minor really. Originally Posted by barrymclark
That Aeolian chord is an Emb6, most correctly...Emb13 implies there could be a lot more in there as well, and well, try that one out...pretty out there...
EDITED FOR CLARITY...don't know what I was thinking...of course the B's in there...Last edited by mr. beaumont; 04-17-2013 at 10:15 AM.
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Even if the b6 is beyond the octave of the target root? Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
I am trying to get a feel now of when something is a b6 and when something is a b13.
Now.... the Em6 should imply the flatted 6. Correct?
For simplicity, Am6 should have an F whereas the Am13 will have an F#. Is that the determining factor?
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Em13(Maj7) -- for that MM sound -- 025642
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You're still making up your own rules! Think of E minor chords as drawing their notes from E Dorian (2 sharps). Originally Posted by barrymclark
So Em6 is E G B C# and Em13 is E G B D F# A C#. That's how it is.
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This is why I think it's beneficial to stick to the major scale and learn formulas for making chords, even minor chords.
Naming, for the most part, is dependent on context.
I wouldn't write b13 if I didn't want to imply the 7th, 9th and/or 11th were fair game. If I want R, b3, 5, 6, then I write m6.
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Not intending to. Trying to learn 'the' rule. Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
So... every chord, even minor chords, are based initially on the major scale. That being said, if I wanted R, b3, 5, b6 then I would write Rmb6? Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Then the only flatted notes that are implied by a min chord designation is the b3 and b7? Everything else must be noted as flat?
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Yeah, I wouldn't say "based." That gives the impression they're derived from that scale.
Better to say chord formulas are based, or "applied to" the major scale.
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Yes...Are you trying to understand old school Maj/min harmony... different than what's been used for a while.
Generally... in jazz you label with reference to Maj. When you say min, your implying a b3rd and b7... you need to label or imply if you want anything specific beyond 7th chords.
Jazz has may options as to what the rest of the notes for each chord are. We don't assume Nat. Min, Aeolian when we see Min. We make quick analysis of tune, with respect to the jazz library of tunes... and play, it usually changes as we play. ( most of the time when I see Min chord implying VI-7, Aeolian... I use VI7#9)
When I see min. options are
Dorian
MM
Aeolian
phrygian or Dorian b9
etc...
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There's one fly in the ointment for the idea that chords (or rather chord names and chord symbols) are derived from the major scale: the 7th.
Eg, if that were true then C E G B would be called "C7" - and of course it isn't. C7 has a Bb - which is not in the C major scale.
IOW, that's the exception. The governing principle with chord terminology is that the names and symbols - being designed as a handy shorthand - should ideally reflect the most common chord types; IOW, the commonest chords should have the simplest names.
The commonest kind of 7th is a minor 7th - 10 half-steps above the root. (There are 5 minor 7ths in the major scale and its modes, only 2 major 7ths, 11 half-steps. Also, the chord most likely to have a 7th added is the V chord, which has a minor 7th.)
First thing to remember is that chord names come from interval names: words such as "major", "minor", "diminished" refer to interval names first. Chords then tend to be named after their most significant intervals. "Major" and "minor" after their 3rds, "diminished and "augmented" after their 5ths.
A source of confusion can be that 2nds, 6ths and 7ths (as well as 3rds) are also major or minor (ie larger or smaller), while major intervals can be enlarged to "augmented", and minor ones can be reduced to "diminished".
A study of interval terminology will help enormously in understanding chord theory.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interval_(music)
http://musictheoryblog.blogspot.co.u...intervals.html
Anyway, the rule with chord shorthand is:
3rd = assume major, not mentioned in symbol. Use "m" for minor 3rd
5th = assume perfect, not mentioned in symbol. Use "b5" or "#5" if 5th altered; or "dim" if b5 and m3 together (see below).
7th = assume minor, add "7" to symbol. If major, add "maj".
Figures above 7 (9, 11, 13) imply inclusion of 7th. So no need to use the figure "7" too, but add "maj" if 7th is major.
9th = assume major ("9"). "b9" for minor 9th, "#9" for augmented 9th *.
11th = assume perfect ("11"). "#11" for augmented 11th *.
13th = assume major ("13"). "b13" for minor 13th (very rare).
"2", "4", and "6" mean the same notes as 9, 11 and 123, but without the 7th. A "6" (major) can be added to major or minor triads, but 2 and 4 tend to occur as suspensions, with the 3rd omitted.
IOW, all chord tones and extensions are assumed to be major or perfect, except for the 7th which is minor as standard. Exceptions from these defaults are indicated with added letters or signs: "m", "maj", etc.
* - in chord names, the word "augmented" is best reserved for the 5th; it causes confusion if used to refer to enlarged 9th or 11th extensions, which better named as simply "#9" and "#11".
Likewise, although the correct term for a b9 interval is "minor 9th", that phrase is used to refer to a min7 chord with a normal (major) 9th added. So "b9" is better.
Diminished chords are an exception. As with major and minor triads, dim triads can have two kinds of 7th added, but in this case they are either minor or diminished (not major or minor). A diminished 7th is one half-step smaller than a minor 7th.
"dim" = minor 3rd, diminished 5th
"m7b5" (aka "half-diminished") = minor 3rd, diminished 5th, minor 7th (from vii degree of major scale, or ii of minor)
"dim7" (aka fully diminished) = minor 3rd, diminished 5th, diminished 7th (from vii degree of harmonic minor scale)
Eg B-D-F = Bdim = vii in C major, ii in A minor.
B-D-F-A = Bm7b5= vii in C major, ii in A minor.
B-D-F-Ab = Bdim7 = vii in C minor (harmonic minor)
I'd agree with bako that harmonising scales is probably the best way to understand chords and chord symbols in common use. IOW, build chords on each step of a scale, not just on the root.
Best scales to use are major and harmonic minor; melodic minor does produce a couple of unique ones, but not quite as common as those from major and harmonic minor.
When it comes to adding extensions, that depends on how they sound: whether they are too dissonant with lower chord tones.
Eg, a b6 occurs naturally on minor chords on the iii and vi steps of the major scale, and i of harmonic minor. But b6s create a dissonance with the 5th of the chord, and also resemble a different chord. Eg, A C E F ("Amb6") will sound more like an inversion of Fmaj7 (F A C E). So we simply wouldn't add a b6; and same applies to a b13 (F added to Am7).
Better-sounding major 6ths occur on ii in major, iv in minor, and also on i in melodic minor.
So "Am6" (A C E F#) could occur as ii in G major, iv in E minor, or i in A minor.Last edited by JonR; 04-17-2013 at 11:23 AM.
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John, you always say this...but if you just understand that the formula is the formula and apply, there's no need to complicate things.
I'm perfectly fine with someone telling me: This is the way it is, learn it...but that's just me.
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I would call that chord a minor sixth. Your default setting is always the major scale. Originally Posted by barrymclark
Major Scale = R, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13
Major 7th = R, 3, 5, 7
Major = R, 3, 5
Minor = R, b3, 5
7th = R, 3, 5, b7
Minor 7th = R, b3, 5, b7
Minor-Major 7th = R, b3, 5, 7
6th = R, 3, 5, 6
Minor 6th = R, b3, 5, 6
I don't see the point in labeling a chord m13 when m6 is clearer.
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I have no issue being told how it is. I just want to understand the how and why. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
So, just so that I understand:
The maj/min designations imply the flattening (or not) of only the 3rd and 7th intervals. Yes?
All else must be specifically noted if differing from the major scale of the same root.
A 6 in the chord name indicates that a 7 is not used.
A 13 indicates that a 7 is used despite it being the same note as a 6.
In a general sense, am I catching on?
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This seems to be at odds with what others have put unless I misunderstand. Originally Posted by whatswisdom
While the interval is a minor sixth (the C in Emin), the consensus here seems to be that the chord should be named minb6 as min6 has a C#.
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My comment was directed to JonR... Originally Posted by barrymclark
And yes, it seems you're getting it...the chord is C minor, sixth, not C, minor sixth...if that makes sense.
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Great! Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Now is there a similar implication rule for the 2/9 or the 4/11?
Meaning that 9 and 11 imply that a 7 is in play or something along those lines?
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Yes. I'll ring the changes: Originally Posted by barrymclark
C = C E G
CMaj = C E G
Cmin = C Eb G
C7 = C E G Bb
CMaj7 = C E G B
Cmin7 = C Eb G Bb
Cmin(Maj7) C Eb G B
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A 13th is a dominant 7th ( a semitone below the major 7 ) along with a 6th in the chord. They are not the same note. They are separated by a semitone. Originally Posted by barrymclark
Going in reverse from the root: Root- major 7 ( written as maj 7) - dominant 7 ( written as 7 ) - 6 - b6 - 5 etc
Also major-minor designation only applies to the third. The b7 ( dominant 7th ) is just implied with it and will be designated otherwise if it is a maj7 with the b3.
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The rule is that most chords are built up in stacks of thirds (triads, seventh, ninth, eleventh and thirteen chords). Originally Posted by barrymclark
Example:
* CMaj9 implies that the 7 can be in the chord.
* Cmin11 implies the b7 and 9 can be in the chord.
* C13 implies the b7, 9, and 11(*) can be in the chord.
(*) Exceptions: because of the clash between the major 3rd and the perfect 4th, the 4th/11th is often not played in a CMaj13 or C13 chord. In fact, using a #11 is commonly done, but should be noted: C13(#11).
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