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Well I have worked alot of soloing and technique, speed, and all that other stuff. But I do realize that nobody will really play with you unless you can comp well. I have some books I am going to start working out of, but if anybody has any advice pertaining this subject, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance
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04-11-2007 01:56 PM
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There are two main approaches i used when learning to comp, depending on the situation; the first is if you are playing with just another soloist, there is no-one keeping the beat (ie usually bassist or drummer). This means that usually the other guy (or gal) will want you to play four to a bar. In terms of the actual chords you should start to learn the simplest triads (major7, dominant7 and minor7) a couple of extensions to each (b5, b9, 13 etc etc) gradually building up your library.
The second approach is for if you have a bassist and/or drummer keeping time, and you can sit back, listen to what the soloist is doing and then try and compliment it. An interesting way of approaching this is to take the same scales and modes you take for soloing over a chord, and just pick out a few notes you can play simultaneously like, over a G-7 for a bar:
[CHORD]
||---|---|---|---|-0-|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|-0-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|-0-|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|(R)|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
[/CHORD]
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It might do you good to pick up Aebersold or Hal Leonard Play A-Long books. They come with a removable piano comping part so you can just play with the bass and drums. I prefer the Hal Leonard, because it also has the melody and a soloist playing on top, and a just rhythm section version. The Aebersold does not have the melodies. But both will do you good.
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If you want to get people to play with you buy Real Books 1 and 2. Any good soloist or player will know most of those songs and its a great book to read out of. Mainly just going to have Swing, Latin, Ballad and Blues. It would be great for your comping. >=)
Originally Posted by CM1000
Here's a link to Real Book 1. Real Book 1
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Do the Real Books have tab and chord forms? I hate to try and play the guitar while having to move my lips... It throws off my rhythm!
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No the books don't. Just lead sheets, Melody and Chords. What do you mean by "I hate to try and play the guitar while having to move my lips"? I don't understand what that means. If you can learn to play songs out of the Real Books, it will enhance your comping drastically Originally Posted by sigung86
Do the Real Books have tab and chord forms? I hate to try and play the guitar while having to move my lips... It throws off my rhythm!
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Those are not triads. Originally Posted by seanlowe
How is that a G-7 if it has not the 3rd OR the 7th? That's a sus2 chord. Sure you can pick notes out of a hat but you better be able to identify it correctly. Originally Posted by seanlowe
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Listen - Listen - Listen!
Anyone can learn to play chords but learning to comp involves much more than playing chords!
Listen to the guys who really comp well! Ron Eschete, Jim Hall, Doug Raney are the 3 best examples I can think of. All are truly masters of comping as well as other approaches to Jazz guitar. (Ron-master of 7-string jazz guitar) (Jim Hall - great ideas for melodic approaches and well known for his comping abilities) (Doug Raney - He has it all! Very much like his father, Jimmy Raney with a strong Pat Martino influence---very melodic player but truly a master of comping techniques).
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they are triads on guitar, because a standard 135 triad on guitar sounds muffled, so you'll find that playing (eg) C E B always brings out the flavour, where the 5th is effectively redundant (apart from b or # 5ths obviously, where they take priority) also, a 1357 triad is never worth the effort to play.
As for the chord example, the point i was making was that you are complimenting the soloist; they are outlining the harmony, you are not playing all the notes underneath them all the time so you know where you are on the sheet. This is all in the way of getting a fresh sound, if you listen to a pianist comping someone like jim hall when he is really hitting every note as a chord tone, they will play some other degrees of the scale, filling out the harmony in a subtle manner (things like minor 6ths or #4s)
Hope this cleared some stuff up!
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Check out Arnie Berle's chord methods. They run deep - but they move forward very logically, promoting and encouraging familiarity with the interval relationships that will allow you to very quickly come up with embellishments and extensions. They also delve heavily into substitution and reharmonization. Originally Posted by CM1000
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Originally Posted by pete
haha cool, thats the one I was about to start working out of. I guess im on the right track. thanks to everybody's advice so far. different people's insight is alwats appreciated
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Sorry PC! That was a joke! Sort of like ... well ... doing anything, but more like trying to read, and reading, oh ... let's say, "Beowulf", but doing it so badly that you have to move your lips to understand the words you are reading. Originally Posted by Pulseczar
I do thank everyone for the recommendations on the Real Books though.
Takle care.
Dan
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Something that I'm playing with in comping (Being relatively new, and trying fun creative ways to play anything) is to play only 2 notes of the chord and then to switch up and down in tones and semitones to follow the progression without actually playing the root.
Sorry, that wasnt clear.
What I mean to say, is play games with yourself to try and come up with more interesting and tasty comping. An example of this would be to play only inversions of the 3 and 7 to show the chromaticism of many jazz pieces. For example, here's how I might comp the first 8 bars of autumn leaves. (Simplified, somewhat: rhythm and little fills are ignored)
Am7 D7 Gmaj7 Cmaj7
e--------|--------|---------|--------|
B--------|--------|---------|--------|
G---5----|---5----|----4----|---4----|
D---5----|---4----|----4----|---2----|
A--------|--------|---------|--------|
E--------|--------|---------|--------|
F#m7b5 B7 Em7
e---------|--------|---------|----------|
B---------|--------|---------|----------|
G---2-----|---2----|---0-----|----------|
D---2-----|---1----|---0-----|----------|
A---------|--------|---------|----------|
E---------|--------|---------|----------|
-GLast edited by Gabriel; 04-14-2007 at 01:23 AM.
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i say the best way of accompaniment is to use other chords and styles of chords, instead of those 'big blocks', and just playing the rhythm. Learn thirds, fourths, seventh diads etc. Learn how to make a chord, and remember that a chord is only a stacked up scale, and a scale is a spread out chord. Use arpeggios and inversions to create movement in your music. If there is time (a.k.a your not playing at 300 bpm) on a 5-2-1 progression, play the other chords like the 4th the 3rd and the 7th, whatever. you can also harmonize on parts of the song that require both of you to play rhythm. Dont forget that playing notes or chords the same way dont sound too hot. Use an inversion, or a relative minor or major (thats some deep stuff). Dont close any doors in your playing, and connecting all of these methods is easier than you think.
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well, ted greene's "chord chemistry" is the bible on chords.
i agree on the idea of listening...how's your fretboard knowledge? do you know several inversions for every chord? what's tripping you up specifically, rhythm or technique?
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The best method for comping would be to find a few all purpose movavable chord shapes. A few would be...
GM7: 3x443x
G7: 3x343x
G9: 3x34x5
G6/9:3x223x
Gm7: 3x3333
Gm9: 3x3335
Gm6: 3x233x
and for chords on the fifth string
CM7: x3545x
C7: x3231x
C9: x3233x
C6/9:x3223x
Cm7: x3134x
Cm9: x3133x
those wil start you off then you expand into chord alterations and start putting in b5,#5,b9,#9,#11, and 13ths. Also you need to realize that any chord changes you see are merely suggestions, most domanant7 can be replaced by a dom9 or b9 or b5b9 or 13(#11) you get the idea.
P.S. A triad doesn't just mean three notes it means specificly 1-3-5. Also triads work on guitar GM:3x543x.
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Some interesting thoughts so far on this topic.
I personally come from the Wes bag when it comes to comping. Listen to some of his recordings and feel his sense of time. It is very funky and extremely hip, but what he is doing most of the time is very simple.
My tips:
1. Learn simple four note min / maj / 7th shapes on the DGBE strings with their invertions (generally four going up and down the neck).
2. Learn simple three note min / maj / 7th shapes on the DGB strings with their invertions (generally four going up and down the neck).
2. Practice moving these shapes up and down in a rhythmic and melodic sense. Work out interesting lead lines and then play them using the chords. For chromatic non-scale/invertion notes, use the diminished shape or octaves.
3. With a lot going on elsewhere these shapes will get you buy. Save your big six string grips for the end of the song.
4. One warning - all of this substitution talk is - I'm afraid - nonsense. Play what sounds good. Do not try to apply formulas to get by. This is music, not a puzzle that needs solving. Think of it this way, if you keep playing 13ths your soloist has no where to go but the 13th you are dictating to them. Similarly, if you sub you soloist will have to sub. This is called the 'tail wagging the dog'. If you play invertions of simple 7th chords and do so in a funky syncopated manner your soloist will be inspired and - hopefully - will treat you to some great comping when it is your turn to blow. Then you can hit the 13th and then you can sub, if you so wish.
Remember - keep it simple stupid.
Cheers
Fil
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subbing is nonsense? variety is the spice of life, and jazz. Originally Posted by Fil
if you're in a big band, or there's a piano player, yeah, keep it simple so you don't clash. but if you're the sole rhythm instrument-- you better make it interesting. nobody's saying play a thirteenth on every chord, but spurring a soloist on with ideas is part of jazz-- it's interplay. the best accompanyment is both rhythmicly and harmonically inspiring.
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But I suppose it all comes down to who is signing the cheques. If the soloist's name is on the marquee and he / she is paying the bills, play whatever he / she wants you to play. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
All kidding aside, Joe Pass is a good person to listen to for sterling examples of how to accompany a vocalist or just another solo player in a duo setting. I think at one time he was the most in-demand jazz guitar accompanist for singers.
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In response to Fil again, you're right about not subbing for the hell of it if you are comping; but the point is if a soloist is substituting something you should be able to hear it, and do the same thing as you are meant to be responsive to what he is doing harmonically
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I was just discussing comping a couple of hours ago with my teacher... Well look, there are some useful tips. Try to use extensions, inversions, different shapes... A good example is a 2 5 1:
a D -7 b5 G7 C-7 can turn into a D-7 b5 (x5656x) D-7 b5 b13 (xx6566),
G7 b9 or G# dim (xx3434) G7 b9 / D or D dim (x5646x) and C-7 (x35343), C-7 13 (x35345) and a C-7 again, but like this: x35346.
Now, try moving it, and you'll get a good motion!
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I think this is helping me alot. Plenty of info for a beginner like me. But when I try to comp, I add some fill in notes somewhere in it or pick out a few arpeggio notes. I feel it adds some flavor.
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[[[4. One warning - all of this substitution talk is - I'm afraid - nonsense. Play what sounds good. Do not try to apply formulas to get by. This is music, not a puzzle that needs solving. Think of it this way, if you keep playing 13ths your soloist has no where to go but the 13th you are dictating to them. Similarly, if you sub you soloist will have to sub. This is called the 'tail wagging the dog'. If you play invertions of simple 7th chords and do so in a funky syncopated manner your soloist will be inspired and - hopefully - will treat you to some great comping when it is your turn to blow. Then you can hit the 13th and then you can sub, if you so wish.
Remember - keep it simple stupid.
Cheers
Fil]]]
I don't agree with the above comment.
- For starters, yes, it is music to play what sounds good (sometimes), but there are approaches that open up your ears and get headed down a road. There are formulas that help. Don't get tied up by the formulas, but there are formulas....ii V I is one that comes to mind, or tritone substitution. It is a puzzle
- If you are playing with an experienced player you wouldn't be "wagging the dog." I know where I am in the tune and don't need the guy comping to tell me where I am. This helps create tension. If I hear a guy going way out in his comping (while I am soloing), and I know where I am in the tune, I don't have to follow the guys comping. I can counter it!
I may be missing the boat here, but to play dynamically and "engage" with the folks you are playing with you have to be able to "withstand" what they throw at you. You choose to go with or against them. It is always good to talk prior to a gig if you don't know who you are playing with and how they may like to play. If I didn't know some common dialect (chord formulas for example, idomatic jazz approaches to tunes), then I could very well be lost.
Hey, all in fun and sharing!
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Very nicely stated Butch! We are very much in agreement on this.
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Step 1 : Listen to Martin Taylor.
Step 2 : Buy all his Tutorial Videos.
Step 3 : Learn them all.
Step 4 : Think Chromatic.
Step 5 : There 'aint one. You're there. ... !!
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