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The chord exercises in the Mickey Baker books really reflect the time when they were written, when you didn't have the Real Book. I've read players voicing confusion re. how to use Mickey Baker's beginning lessons with a Real Book. The answer, of course, is "don't do them with a Real Book". Dig up something really old or more vanilla. Players used to have to "jazz up" a chart. When I learned the first Mickey Baker stuff years ago, I didn't know there was such a thing as Real Book. Working your through your own changes is definitely it's own thing.
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03-18-2015 09:33 PM
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A fascinating subject, and a timely bump.
I think having a knowledge of the so called vanilla chords actually provides considerable insight into the way that many of the "classic era" players actually thought of these tunes. Their embellishments of these tunes were stylistic choices, and have only become common practice over time.
In addition, I've come to the opinion that learning Jazz via modern Fake books can lead a player into a tendency towards what I've called " harmonic pedanticism". That is, a tendency to be too literal with the harmony stated on a lead sheet.
I agree that since the bop era, a soloist has had to be able to run chords, but, as an example, reducing ii-V's simply to V chords may help to illustrate how these two tonalities interact, and show how the soloist has the choice to use either of these tonalities as they choose, rather than strictly dividing them by the bar line. It's the same with the I-IV move in Autumn Leaves mentioned. We can clearly see a relationship between G6, Emin7 and Cmaj7/9.
On a related note, regarding composers intentions, I sometimes think of how familiar people are with the tune Summertime, and the chord changes implied by the very strong counter melodies that run through the tune, and I then think of the leadsheet changes that Jazz players use, and feel that they don't bear much resemblance to one another. So perhaps the original orchestrated versions of these tunes may hold more clues than we Jazz players give them credit for.
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The chord exercises in the Mickey Baker books really reflect the time when they were written, when you didn't have the Real Book. I've read players voicing confusion re. how to use Mickey Baker's beginning lessons with a Real Book. The answer, of course, is "don't do them with a Real Book". Dig up something really old or more vanilla. Players used to have to "jazz up" a chart. When I first learned the Mickey Baker stuff, I didn't know about Real Books. Working your through your own changes is definitely it's own thing.
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For the last few years I've had the pleasure of playing with an elderly wind player who grew up playing 1940's swing. He definitely thinks of that repertoire in "vanilla" style. He encouraged me to harmonize more simply, for example going straight to the V unless there's a compelling reason to precede it by the ii.
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iReal Pro users might find this useful. The Django Fakebook has mostly vanilla changes. Someone went to the trouble creating iReal Pro charts from it, which makes it transposable. Here's the link to import it:
Gypsy Jazz - Page 12
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I did not know this and am happy to hear it. I've found some old songbooks at the library. (Sometimes I want the lyrics from them more than the changes, but I look at the changes too.) As someone said above, some popular sheet music scores were written for amateur players to play from at home; they weren't like what we now call "Guitar Recorded Versions," where you get exactly (-or close to it) what so-and-so played on a such-and-such a record. I once found a sheet for "Atchison, Topeka & the Santa Fe" that had eight bars of G. I had to get creative to make something of that. But I did, and I still play that song sometimes with my little 'inventions' to keep it going.
Originally Posted by Cunamara
Mickey Baker's first book has example where the "old" changes are given on top and his more modern ones given beneath them. One could do worse than compare some "vanilla book" changes to Mickey's examples...
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This reminds me of Willie Thomas (--trumpet) and his "pentatonic pairs" approach. (He said Wynton Kelly taught it to him; they met in the Army.) The first two "cells" are made from the 5th and 6th and from the 1st (root) and 2nd. You can play a lot of classic swing jazz riffs using those notes and varying the rhythms. (On a note from the other end of the spectrum, Barry Harris stresses the importance of the I6 chord / scale rather than the 1 Major 7th.) Originally Posted by dortmundjazzguitar
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Amen Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
Really - don't do anything with the Real Book ;-)
Easier said than done...
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I learned Autumn Leaves of Dave Cliff (first jazz lesson I ever had) and we didn't have the sub at the end.
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I'd noticed that floating note in All the Things You Are before too. I think that Jack Leonard shifted that note down because he couldn't hit the 6th, and everybody followed his lead - even Helen Forrest certainly could but still used the 4th in her 1939 recording with Artie Shaw. Jack doesn't sound like he has much to offer in the range department, but even so that high note is asking a lot of any singer.
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I think the concept behind the changes to the RPVB was the concept of the pianist on the backing tracks that go along with the VB.
Through playing with the backing tracks, I noticed two principles that govern the choice of changes that are used:
1) The changes have to contain every melody note to the song, using only basic 7th chords (maybe a few 9th chords), with no extensions (11ths or 13ths).
2) On many songs where the ii chord is normally used where it is not followed by the V chord (Wine and Roses, Autumn in NY, On a Clear Day, Slow Boat To China, etc...). the IV chord is used instead.
These two basic concepts make me think that the changes come from this particular pianist, rather than the original sheet music.
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OK, here's the nut in the nutshell:
The entire idea of playing chords as a jazz guitarist is to add color and movement to what are otherwise simple chord changes. It's the same thing that a pianist or big band arranger does.
The first several lessons in Mickey Baker's Jazz Guitar Method are devoted to this very thing. So is Randy Vincent's Three Note Voicings and Beyond and so is Alan Kingstone's Barry Harris Harmonic Method for Guitar.
Most of the songs in The Great American Songbook began as Tin Pan Alley pop tunes or songs from Broadway shows or movies. They were simple songs with simple harmonies. Jazz musicians dressed them up with substitutions and passing chords to make them more interesting to play night after night on the bandstand.
The starting point with any tune is the basic changes, then you bring what you know, to the extent that you know it, to the song and add the color and motion to the progression.
It isn't about The Real Book or anything else other than taking the simple vanilla changes and making them more interesting to you and your bandmates.
Knowing the most simple basic changes to a tune is Fundamental; just as knowing the melody is also.
Everything begins with the Fundamentals!
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So cool that this thread resurfaced. Just getting caught up. So much good advice in here. Originally Posted by Cunamara
I'm glad we got beyond the thing about reminding everyone not to just play the chart. We're not all beginners. I don't play anything from charts. I always come up with arrangements in new keys, styles, change the harmonies, etc.
What I was interested in doing is exactly what you said that Bernstein does. I'd love to find some of the really old sheet music. Right now I typically go through 3 or 4 of the most famous versions of a tune, transcribing as much as I can. I wanted to see what the source material looked like, because I think it might help me conceptualize how people made the choices that they did and how the music developed over time.
I hadn't thought of the library. I think Chicago's Harold Washington might actually have a good set of sheet music stacks. I'll have to go check in there and see what I can find.
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I feel like you've been flying under the radar a bit on this forum for people that haven't seen your playing on the Benson picking thread and a couple others. Unlike Reg, Henry, Scott Jones and a few other heavy players who it seems everyone has heard. Originally Posted by monk
Just want to point out that you are a great player, and when you speak I pay special attention to what you say. Everyone else should, too.
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Thank you, Evan but I'm afraid you've confused me with someone else. I haven't posted any videos anywhere. I do hope to get a camera soon and record some things in the near future. Originally Posted by ecj
Regards,
Jerome
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Hmm, I must've mixed you up. I thought you participated on the Benson thread. Originally Posted by monk
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Speaking of the Benson thread (-off topic here, I know, but some people here might not have been there in a long time now and might otherwise miss this): JC Stylles posted a 4-minute video this week containing a few "Advanced Tips" on Benson picking. If you have worked on the picking but not kept up with the thread, check it out! It sure helped me.
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Monk doesn't post vids of his playing here but he's an old-time GIT alum and has performed with lots of pros. He's also extraordinarily well read with a keen sense of history (musical and otherwise.) His advice is always worth paying close attention too. He's taught me a lot (-which isn't always easy, as I can be hard-headed....) Originally Posted by ecj
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I appreciate the kind words, Mark.
Thanks,
Jerome
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Most of the songbook tune melodies basically imply the vanilla changes...
So what are vanilla changes, what do they reflect harmonically. Back up vocalist...old school vocalist. All you do is play basic changes setting up the melody...
I also like Monk's reminder...Everything begins with the Fundamentals!... The trick is not to try and have only one fundamental... Try not and have only one basic language or understanding of music and force that one fundamental on everything... and of course visa versa.
Most tunes are just tonic dominant and tonic.... throw in some subdominant... and embellishments and you have the vanilla.
When your playing what you like or want... it's one situation. When your playing for someone else, what they like or want, it's another... and of course if your actually performing for an audience, there's always that thin line of keeping the audience involved... there are only a few reasons their there.
When you perform tunes... don't you naturally make an analysis. The basic form has implications, melodically and harmonically... you look for the basic vanilla harmonic movement that reflects the melody.... the vanilla melody as well. then look for the personal compositional details that reflect the composers style, or what the composer used to make the tune somewhat unique... or very standard. You usually don't just start playing a tune and figure out what the tune is about after. If you don't... you should.
After some time you are able to go through this process very quickly. There are common forms and styles of tunes.
Yea Monk... I would dig hearing you play, i also always enjoy and respect your posts.
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Ah yes, that well known jazz standard, Louie Louie. Originally Posted by Reg
Those old songs weren't that crude, early items like All of Me or Bye Bye Blues are pretty rudimentary but the bulk of the material is interesting in its own right, to me anyway. Both of those examples I find more interesting harmonically/melodically than your typical rock song, too. Not that I have a beef with rock music, it has pleasures of its own, but it's curious how it doesn't really translate into jazz.
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Rock and pop are much closer to Classical tonal and use of parallelism as compared to jazz which went more in the modal direction. I don't mean modal in respect to static harmony, more in the direction using different notes to create the relationships for guidelines which push the harmonic movement.
But both All of me and Bye Bye Blues are still very simple I V I with some Maj/min functional and SD organizational filler.
Their both very vanilla harmonically.
I don't see that much difference between the tunes... Of course I think of many more tunes as V I than Louie Louie... but it still works for example, it's vanilla.
I personally think vanilla when those tunes are called, (AOM and BBB or LL) and even though the tunes could be more interesting when performed... generally their not. And I don't have a beef with that, it's just the way it is.
I mean what implies the basic vanilla changes.... what the original composer decided on... and anything beyond those... is an arrangement. Or is the layered analysis or Schenker analysis the real vanilla.
Or common practice... and what common practice becomes acceptable... is adding a related II ...cover for vanilla or using a relative V chord. Is jazz even vanilla... are we playing retro movie, show tune tours now... the great retro vanilla jazz tour, coming to a club or restaurant near you. Sorry i just play too many gigs that could fall into that BS. It's all good, but what makes it good... the vanilla... hopefully not over and over.
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Nope, can't get in. I guess it's goodbye to playing "Cherokee" at 340bpm.
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This a very old thread but I'm being asked to sign in to the Vanilla Book's site. Whichever Ralph Patt site I go to the same thing happens. I can't remember if I had to sign in originally (I doubt it).
Try it out. Tell me if you can or can't get into it. The URL is, or used to be, (remove X):
http://www.ralphXpatt.com/Song.html
Attachment 108614
Incidentally, I have a pdf file of it (thank goodness) but I'd still prefer the indexed online site.
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Internet Archive works Originally Posted by ragman1
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