susb9 chords

[scmods1]

I'm lost. I'm going through the Jazz Theory book and so far it's a walk. I've hit wall though. How does on play a susb9 chord with the root on the low E and the A string. I can't follow the music on this chord. Any help would be more than greatly appreciated!

THANX!

JMP

[GodinFan]

Do you mean the root played on both the 6th and 5th strings?

An E7sus(b9) could be played 07776x It would spell out as Eeadf

I play a sus(b9) voicing on the 4321 string set with a similar fingering; just eliminating the open 6th string.

C7sus(b9) would be x3332x, for example.

[mr. beaumont]

Really you can take any 7b9 voicing and raise the third...

[DMK]

Th sus b9 can be thought of as: a minor triad triad over a non chord tone...
like A minor/B.
Easy to play one with the root on E string if: you play D-/E (D minor triad, though a D minor 7th/E will give you similar)
on A string: Gminor/A

[scmods1]

Whats the best way to play a Csusb9 or a Gsusb9 then? Im just curious. I'm just getting into Jazz and I really need the guidance. =)

JMP

[mr. beaumont]

In jazz the best way is the way that smoothly leads to and from the chords around it.

if you're just starting out in jazz, where are you encountering susb9 chords?

[scmods1]

Levine's Jazz Theory book. When I start learning something new I tend to jump in with both feet. I've found various fingerings online but they're not that moveable and i have to contort my fingers. I found the subject of the chords on page 48 where he discusses the Phrygian scale. The progression on page 48 is F#sus to F#susb9 to F7. There's another on page 49 that goes A-7 to Dsusb9 to GMaj7. I don't have a good ear yet for Jazz (I've been playing Blues-rock for many a year and am mostly used to the standard I IV V thing and some of its variations.)

JMP

[DMK]

Whats the best way to play a Csusb9 or a Gsusb9 then? Im just curious. I'm just getting into Jazz and I really need the guidance. =)

JMP

Csus4b9: Bb minor triad over C
Gsusb9: F minor triad over G

[thrush40]

As always, context is pretty important. I most often play the sus9 and susb9 without a fourth, but recently started playing these a lot more often with a fourth after finding the voicings critical to a certain sound in a certain tune (arranging Dianna Krall's version of I'll String Along With You). Now I find myself applying this in places I didn't before.

FWIW, I don't play with a bass player, so I am voicing the chords with the root on the low E string or on the A string dependent upon where I find my hand on the fretboard at the time.

Best of Luck.

[scmods1]

So one possibilit coudl be xx6446. Right?

JMP

[mr. beaumont]

Levine's Jazz Theory book. When I start learning something new I tend to jump in with both feet. I've found various fingerings online but they're not that moveable and i have to contort my fingers. I found the subject of the chords on page 48 where he discusses the Phrygian scale. The progression on page 48 is F#sus to F#susb9 to F7. There's another on page 49 that goes A-7 to Dsusb9 to GMaj7. I don't have a good ear yet for Jazz (I've been playing Blues-rock for many a year and am mostly used to the standard I IV V thing and some of its variations.)

JMP

I meant what songs are you playing as a jazz beginner with susb9 chords in them?

[JonR]

Levine's Jazz Theory book.

There's the (potential) problem. Don't start with a theory book. Start with the music.
Have you found a susb9 in any tune you've been learning? If not, forget about it until you do.

I'm not saying Levine's book is not good. When I first read it, around 20 years ago when I was beginning to get more seriously into jazz (after nearly 30 years of playing folk, blues, rock, and primitive kinds of jazz), I found it eye-opening, even inspiring. It didn't bother me that it didn't seem to apply to any of the music I was then studying (the usual jazz standards, mostly); I liked it for the way it was written, the clarity of expression, the apparent authority of its quotes from recordings. Reading it was a nice intellectual exercise, which gave the impression of advancing my understanding. It was a good read, IOW.
For a while I considered it a personal failing on my part not to be able to seamlessly apply its lessons to my improvisation - I couldn't make the connection with music in practice. I continued to improvise the way I always had done (chord tones, chromatics, melodic/rhythmic phrasing, etc).
Then I began to read criticisms of the book, and a few veils fell from my eyes. The book had next to nothing on functional harmony (a rushed handful of pages at the beginning); although that was how all jazz up to 1959 (and much after) worked. Its modal approach was one-sided, biased towards chord-scale theory (CST), an apparently controversial concept in improvisation.
That's when it clicked: I hadn't been able to apply the concepts because 90% of the jazz I played was non-modal. And with the 10% that was modal, I found my old ways still worked.
Yes, I understood about lydian tonics, and quartal sus chords in mixolydian and dorian (even in phrygian), and the "avoid note" concept (all clarified by Levine) - but they were all side issues in practice. Little more than intellectual games.
Levine's critics, OTOH, were talking about methods of improvisation that I had always instinctively applied, because it was what I heard musicians doing on recordings. Chord tones and chromatics, etc, were a no-brainer.

When I start learning something new I tend to jump in with both feet. I've found various fingerings online but they're not that moveable and i have to contort my fingers.

What you're jumping into sounds like a combination of theory and technique. What about the tunes? Jazz is all about the repertoire (the canon of standards) and the vocabulary. You might get some vocabulary from books (melodies, licks, etc), but you won't get the accent or the sense unless you listen (over and over) to the records and try and copy them.

I found the subject of the chords on page 48 where he discusses the Phrygian scale. The progression on page 48 is F#sus to F#susb9 to F7.

OK - because I'm not opposed to theory, technique, or experimentation! - you can approximate that on guitar as:
--9---9---8----------------
--9---8---8---------------
--9---9---8---------------
--9---9---7---------------
--9---9---8---------------
--------------------------

There's another on page 49 that goes A-7 to Dsusb9 to GMaj7.

Try this:
--5---3---2----------------
--5---4---3---------------
--5---5---4---------------
--5---0-------------------
--0-----------------------
-----------3--------------

I don't have a good ear yet for Jazz (I've been playing Blues-rock for many a year and am mostly used to the standard I IV V thing and some of its variations.)

Right. So what have you learned from the above chord sequences that you find useful? Do you recognise the sounds? IOW, not just "do they sound cool?" (yes they do), but "where have you heard them before?"; and - crucially - would you know when and where to apply them, and how to transpose them to different keys?
Do you appreciate how they differ from a standard ii-V-I? and where and why such differences might be a good idea?

I guess what I'm saying is you are jumping in with both feet- commendable in its way - but into the deep end of the wrong pool .

It's not really possible to appreciate the value of Levine's ideas (and they DO have value) unless you are solidly grounded in basic jazz harmony, and ideally have a few years experience playing jazz tunes.
He does sketch out basic functional harmony in pages 3-26 (and I mean "basic" and "sketch"), so make sure you fully understand that - and can see how it applies to a handful of jazz standards - before delving further.

What he does beyond p.27 is look at jazz harmony from the perspective of the post-modal era: interpreting all jazz (including pre-1959 functional jazz) from a CST angle. That's OK - obviously we are where we are, historically, we can't put ourselves back into the eras of Louis Armstrong, Duke Ellington or Charlie Parker, and understand music fully from their perspective alone. Any modern jazz musician worth his salt has absorbed the modal revolution (and the free and fusion ones after that), and plays accordingly, even when playing an old 1930s/40s standard. (Unless they are a self-conscious revivalist, of course.)

But you can't really appreciate those revolutions without knowing what it was they overturned. They weren't rejecting the past, they were building on it and opening it out. The well-educated modern jazz musician knows his Satchmo as well as he knows his Bird, Trane, Herbie and Sco.

In short, Mark Levine's book shouldn't be called "The Jazz Theory Book"- or even "A Jazz Theory Book";it should be called "An Advanced Post-Modal Jazz Theory Book". Then all would be well. Jump in freely as you wish...

(Oh, and btw, the above progressions are not "Phrygian" in any true modal sense. They are susb9 chords used as altered dominants in functional progressions.)

[scmods1]

Well, this is I think one of the failings of the book. There are some songs that I can't fins anywhere. The first progression comes from La Mesha.

[scmods1]

This really helps put this book in perspective. Thanx man. Ill go back and listen more. Playing the the standard I IV V blues got so easy I guess my ear suffered for it. =)

[DMK]

Do you mean the root played on both the 6th and 5th strings?

An E7sus(b9) could be played 07776x It would spell out as Eeadf

I play a sus(b9) voicing on the 4321 string set with a similar fingering; just eliminating the open 6th string.

C7sus(b9) would be x3332x, for example.

Being an old fashioned guy, I have a frustrating time with this sort of tab name the string and fret, and much prefer just naming the notes (or real notation, of course)....
your above voicings work, but you'll get more clarity and openness if you take the note on the 4th string and put it up an octave (on the first string)...keeping the 4th string muffled is easy.

[Reg]

The voicing or chord symbol needs a reference. Where and what the chord if from... How the chord is functioning.
Function is just where a chord wants to go because of an organized system of harmonic guidelines. Voice leading is just possible movement of individual notes and intervals... not harmonic organization.

So is the chord being used as... III- function... Phrygian harmony. B7susb9, Bb9#11, A-11, Ab13, Gmaj9/B
X X X X X
5 5 3 6 7
5 5 5 5 7
7 6 5 4 7
X X X X10
7 6 5 4 7

Or ... Does the chord have Dom. function, from Harmonic maj, or how ever you choose to to reference the source or Dom function.

Is it from MM... the second degree. Basically used as your reference to access MM.

Or it being used in a pedal type of reference...

Part of your problem of using is probably not understanding the usage... The reference or source of the chord.

Pretty easy to come up with voicings.

If source or reference is III- your usage, relationships develop from there'

When source is MM...you start from there, almost any chord structure from that MM source will work... with typical melodic and interval awareness.

If the reference is a dom function... start there

Pedals... sometimes have different concepts going on simultaneously... the lines can become more important than the harmonic function... the references need to reflect.

Again the actual notes of the chord are pretty mechanical... The b7th works for both Dom and Min... but the 13 is different depending on reference.

I could spell everything out for you... but you'll get more out of going through the mechanical process yourself.

Reg

[Bryan T]

Apparently, I use Esus(b9) all the time, but I think of it as Dmin/E.

I tend to use a tight voicing, like xx7333 for Asus(b9). But I'm really thinking of it as G minor with an A in the bass.

Another voicing I use a lot is xx8785.

[JakeAcci]

if we want a root on the low E string or A string my favorites are:

G:

G X Ab C D G

C:

X C G Db F G

or

X C G Db F Bb

It's true that any combination of the right notes work, and function and context can affect which of the many possible voicings sound best. Thankfully, we often play with bass players which frees us up from having to firmly establish the root.

Another way to look at the chord is a m7b5 with the bass a fourth up. Em7b5/A, Cm7b5/F, etc. For what it's worth I found that to be a good place to start when looking for lines and voicings - just to start, as we have to start somewhere.

[M-ster]

G:

G X Ab C D G

Another alternative:

G x F Ab C G
(3 x 3 1 1 3)

[Reg]

Yea... cool voicings. lets put them in context,

I usually use the 1st voicing Jake posted for Dom function. G X Ab C D G to X C G B E X
1) G7susb9 from C harmonic maj to Cmaj7... I know the voicing doesn't have the b7th, the context can imply and when actually playing, rarely do you just play one voicing. I use lead lines with voicings. If your soloing... are you going to use all the notes all the time?

2) or I hear Fmm as reference... The Gsusb9 is the 2nd degree of Fmm. So really the the voicing is functioning as Bb7 going to Cmaj7. Many call this a backdoor... Anyway I simple use as access to FMM from G-7b9. Once I get the MM reference... all the chords from the reference MM develop an almost sub-dominant function. I can imply resolution to targets or use as pedal access to whatever.

Voicing might have the 13th or E included... G X Ab C E G.



3) use as pedal... I use as pedal sometimes... Like playing G7sus to G7, as compared to D-7 to G7.. but instead I hear the voicing as D-7b5 to G13 or Bb13 to G13, all over G pedal. Again there is access to MM, so lots of possible relationships...

Bryan's voicings are great, I also use that voicing, the Asusb9 for Gmin, either line cliches or just voicing lead lines.

So when I'm referencing G-... the chord is usually G-. If I'm using as A phrygian or Asusb9... say going to D7alt or implying either II- V going to G... or any version of that basic function, then I would hear as A- or Bsusb9

Reg

[Steve Montgomery]

Here's some easy, movable, familiar, voicings that sound good for A7b9sus4:

x x 2 3 3 5
x x 2 3 3 3
x x 2 3 3 2

x x 8 7 5 8
x x 8 7 5 5

x x 8 9 10 10
x x 8 9 10 8

[Reg]

Cool voicings Steve,
1st set is one of my favorites with reference to mm. Can be very deceptive,
Basic function A going to D, V I type of function. So the A7 has lots of options,
x x 2 3 3 5
x x 2 3 3 3 E-7b5

x x 5 6 6 8
x x 5 6 6 6 A7alt

x 5 4 4 5 5 D6/9 (or where ever you want to go)

Could also be heard as A7alted,(or E-7b5) to C7#11 to Dmaj,( or whatever target you choose),
You can plug and play the II V games.

Or use the A pedal etc...

The second set also, just change the F to F# and you have MM reference. Probably closer to bVII function

That last voicing is stretching the relationship, When I start pulling from in your example... a Cdom voicing somewhat functioning as ?...bVII7 . C7 going to D? or at least in a dom type of function... Are you hearing the voicing as a Sub for A7susb9, or more in that Min 3rd pedal type of relationship.

Or just voicing a lead line...

anyway cool voicings, would be cool to hear how you use in context.

Reg

[Steve Montgomery]

Here's a few ways to apply the voicings functioning loosely as V and I, A to D.

These are where the A7b9sus4 chords resolve (basically, plus or minus a pitch or two)
Ist example: F#/D
2nd example: C#/D
3rd example: F#/D, E/D
4th example: F#D
5th example: B/D, E/D

I understand that some folks don't relate to this sort of harmony, but there you have it:

A7b9sus4 to D.mp3

[DMK]

I don't get all this. That chord is OFTEN a tonic sound... in phrygian and in similar settings....

[Steve Montgomery]

Can you be more exact? I'm not sure what it is you are observing. Is it that the "resolutions" to D often contain a bi-tonal aspect to them? Like a D in the bass with a F# major triad on top?