Chord Economics: Deciding What Notes to Leave Out of Voicings

[Jonzo]

Of course it always comes back to "play what sounds right", but I was wondering if there is a decision process that most guitarists use when considering which notes to leave out of extended chord voicings.

Also, I seem to recall reading that you should generally ignore extensions, because they are usually notes that are in the melody. So you will naturally play them as part of a chord solo, or want to avoid them if you are accompanying. Is this true?

How do you think about extensions? What works?

[ecj]

I'm working through a textbook on classical harmony right now, and one of the things that I've noticed is that there are no 100% clear guidelines. For example, on a I major chord you're encouraged to double the octave first, when needed, then the fifth, and to never double the third. On a vii dim neighbor chord you are strongly encouraged to double the third. It's all functional in the context of the voice leading.

For jazz, I'd always been taught to eliminate, in the following order, the root, fifth, and extensions. The third and seventh (or sixth) really define the chord in traditional jazz harmony, so you need them. Most of the extensions are melody notes or color tones. The bass is probably already hitting the appropriate root, and the fifth is kind of like parsley: it's nice to put it on the plate but you don't really notice when it's gone.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

What's the setting? Solo chord melody? Swing Big Band? Something in between?

If you're playing with a bass player, you can leave the root and fifth to him. Even solo, I don't feel the need to include the root in every chord. Another thing I've come to see (hear?) is that you don't need to play many big chords -- I never double a note unless it an occasional strummed out biggie. In classical music, they need to double notes because they're working with triads. In jazz, you should be able to think of another, more interesting, note.

[Jonzo]

I am in my kitchen.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I am in my kitchen.

My bathroom has better acoustics. I'm a shower baritone.

[Jonzo]

My bathroom has better acoustics. I'm a shower baritone.

Shower is good, but it's hard to keep the water out of your guitar.

I was being very general, but you can be as specific as you like.

[pierre richard]

it takes more knowledge and experience to know which notes to include and which ones not to...

takes time man....

just keep at it...

time on the instrument...

[ecj]

In classical music, they need to double notes because they're working with triads. In jazz, you should be able to think of another, more interesting, note.

There are a lot of 7th chords in classical music. The doubling choices are made to accommodate smooth voice leading, not just because there are only 3 tones to include.

[bako]

Chord economics, that's a funny way to put it.

I suggest that you do some investigating and experimenting on your own.
How little can you play and still cover the basic harmony, which combination of notes can
convey function while maintaining interesting colors.

All this changes playing with people. Harmony is the sum total of all the notes played by the band.
If a note is already being played then perhaps it is less important that you also play it. On the other hand maybe the doubling might sound great. These are things that you can best learn through listening, playing and figuring out what sounds you like and what best gets the job done.

Here's a collection of 3 note C7 chords. I included the 9th in some of them.

C E Bb // C Bb E // C G Bb // C Bb G // C Bb D // C D Bb // E Bb C // E C Bb // E Bb D // E Bb E // E Bb G //

G Bb C // G Bb D // G Bb E // Bb C E // Bb C D // Bb D E // Bb C G // Bb D G // Bb E Bb // D E G // D E Bb // D E C //

Even more possibilities when 13/#11/ 11 are invited to the party.

[Reg]

There are no set rules because different harmonic concepts and styles of comping have different guidelines. And add to that... comping is usually not just a backing tract that repeats. Generally that improve thing is also going on.

But in general, Jazz comping begins with 7th chords. Triads are used in relationship to... somewhat like using 9ths, 11ths, voicings in 4ths etc... they're all in reference to basic 7th chords.

Traditional voice leading, specific note resolutions are not the main focus of comping in a jazz style. Basically most of the traditional voice leading, resolutions etc... are from contrapuntal practice of a different style of music.

Voice leading, contrapuntal or note and interval movements, and note addition and omission are not a harmonic concept... they're a performance practice.

The basic concept of traditional contrapuntal, (melodic), and harmonic, (chordal), practice from the classical tradition is smooth, least amount of movement practice. Reinforce what our ears have already been trained to hear... whether it happens or not.

Typically in jazz we like most of what is considered bad contrapuntal practice. We like constant structure, parallel movement... non traditional resolutions.

I'm not endorsing ignorance of Maj/Min functional harmonic common practice.... But be aware of what it is, and in reference to jazz practice.

Generally, using your term chord economics... would be based on the harmonic concept implied by the tune your playing... and then the application or comping style you use to play. ( that style would reflect the harmonic concept)

The harmonic concept would be... The harmonic scheme(s) implied by the Tune. Which is determined by basic analysis, either by you or common jazz practice.

Using traditional Maj/min functional harmony... is one.

Blue note harmony is another.

Modal concepts can create a few more.

Melodic Minor used as a reference can create another.

etc...

The basic concept is... what you choose to use as the beginning reference for how and what chords you comp with. Your note economics would also be reflective of that basic reference.

Eventually... we as rhythmic section players or soloist... don't just play the notated changes. The chords notated are really just giving you an outline of what's implied harmonically. Just as most tunes have a basic reference to one note, chord, key... a tonal reference. Each chord can also have a tonal reference. Some have more weight or importance to the harmonic concept of the tune than others. Your analysis... or the common jazz practice would imply this.

When comping...my personal choices are... the lead, or usually the top note is most important, then the lowest note. The middle voices should just imply the harmonic area. The choice of which notes are used are based on;

-The lead note is either the melody or reinforces the melody. I usually use counter melodies that work with the melody. Or I use a groove type of lead line. It reflects the feel of the tune and again works with the melody.

After the head... the lead line should help create a groove or blanket reflective of what's going on harmonically.

The lowest note as well as the inner voices reinforce my lead line and all work together to create and interact with the soloist, melody or what ever's going on.

How many notes, which ones, how active etc... are not based on preset contrapuntal guidelines... they reflect what's going on while the tune is being played.

Your not going to be able to begin comping in this style... but while you learn and develop the skills, it's not a bad idea to be aware of where you might end up.

If you pick some tunes I'll gladly show example of what I'm talking about... Or on the Practical standards thread, this months tune is Come Rain or Come Shine, I'll make a playing analysis which should describe and show a few possible approaches reflective of harmonic concepts...

Reg

[Stevebol]

I'm working through a textbook on classical harmony right now, and one of the things that I've noticed is that there are no 100% clear guidelines. For example, on a I major chord you're encouraged to double the octave first, when needed, then the fifth, and to never double the third. On a vii dim neighbor chord you are strongly encouraged to double the third. It's all functional in the context of the voice leading.

For jazz, I'd always been taught to eliminate, in the following order, the root, fifth, and extensions. The third and seventh (or sixth) really define the chord in traditional jazz harmony, so you need them. Most of the extensions are melody notes or color tones. The bass is probably already hitting the appropriate root, and the fifth is kind of like parsley: it's nice to put it on the plate but you don't really notice when it's gone.

I was never taught this but I took a lucky guess and arrived at the same conclusion. Older jazz might be a little different. Django rhythm chords are very 5th heavy.

[Reg]

Ok simpler mechanical answer...

You need a reference to organize what notes you need and don't need.

Lets say your just comping through a standard for a singer or someone else playing the melody. That's your reference for how to comp, one of those details could be, your chord economics, what notes to play or not play.

So your goal is to imply the tune, the harmonic content, (Play the right versions of chords to keep melody sounding right.) That's your job.

So your first rule is to imply the correct tonal reference. The chord need to spell or at least imply what the melody needs.

1) if the root of chord is heard or implied whether you play it or not... it's not required.
examples... standard chord patterns, like Blues patterns, II V's, I VI II V's... If you set up what's coming well... again, so that the chord, especially the root is implied. Heard whether you play it or not.

2) The same rule applies to the 5th. Generally if the 5th is natural, not altered, you have more liberty. Again if the melody needs support... like with min7b5's, Dom7th altered in almost any way. Because there are so many different sources from what harmonic system(s) are being referenced. The 5th becomes very important when non-standard chord patterns are used.

Just for the record... I hear most guitarist using 5th incorrect.

3) The 3rds and 7ths need to be used if there not common chord patterns. Like I said 7th chords are the basic language of jazz. I personally hate the very over used 3rd and 7th guide tone line practice of guitarist. But if you can't play them... it's one of those learning tools to help train your ears.

4) the 4th,(sus), or 11th again are needed when their part of the harmonic motion... We as jazz players use sus chords a lot... their ambigous... like 6/9 chords they imply tonal center and leave more room for creating relationships.

Anyway... Chords with altered 11ths are,
-from maj. The lydian or IV chord... key of C... the Fmaj7#11 chord.

- From Melodic Min. 3rd degree chord, bIIImaj7 #5 #11

........................... IV7#11 from 5th degree, C7#11

And the 7th degree... spelled as an min7b5 b9b11b13, we use as dom7 altered chord, so depending on how you spell. but generally the b11 is spelled as the 3rd and the b5 is spelled #11... which if not used with another altered tension or extension, what ever you call natural or altered 9ths, 11ths and 13ths... can be heard as Lyd.b7 chord.
Yea it gets complicated...

From Harmonic Min. 3rd degree or IV-7#11, 6th degree or bVImaj7#9#11 and the 7th degree or VIIdim7 b9b11b13

I'll skip Harmonic maj and the rest, There not really standard practice.

5) With 9ths and 13ths... If you don't understand harmonic concepts, or have seasoned ears,
they can be somewhat tricky. But as a jazz player... they're very important part of our language.

How and where you use and or not use notes is also part of the equation. Almost all tunes have a Harmonic Rhythm... in jazz, that's beyond just the chords changing, it's also the rhythmic patteren of those chord changes. Generally in between those harmonic accent patterns...(the harmonic rhythmic feel of tune), you have freedom to create micro harmonic patterns, you can reinforce each chord or chord pattern or whatever you choose to do.

OK... too much info,

[2bornot2bop]

For jazz, I'd always been taught to eliminate, in the following order, the root, fifth, and extensions. The third and seventh (or sixth) really define the chord in traditional jazz harmony, so you need them. Most of the extensions are melody notes or color tones. The bass is probably already hitting the appropriate root, and the fifth is kind of like parsley: it's nice to put it on the plate but you don't really notice when it's gone.

Playing solo piano is rich in extensions. And the beauty of playing solo is you're your own bass player.

For what guitar players refer to as 'chord melody' jazz piano players by and large aren't going to have the melody dictate their use of extensions. No matter the chord I rarely, if ever, play a basic voicing, and a triad only when it's voiced in 2nd inversion resulting in the interval of a 4th and Maj3rd between the notes. Intervallic relationships between voiced notes is more important than chosen notes for it's the interval that creates your sound. In that regard the INTERVAL is king....but the piano is a painters complete color palette...different instrument different rules.

[Reg]

Playing solo piano is rich in extensions. And the beauty of playing solo is you're your own bass player.

For what guitar players refer to as 'chord melody' jazz piano players by and large aren't going to have the melody dictate their use of extensions. No matter the chord I rarely, if ever, play a basic voicing, and a triad only when it's voiced in 2nd inversion resulting in the interval of a 4th and Maj3rd between the notes. Intervallic relationships between voiced notes is more important than chosen notes for it's the interval that creates your sound. In that regard the INTERVAL is king....but the piano is a painters complete color palette...different instrument different rules.

Yea... the piano is different... textures and voicings, the mechanical aspects of harmonic concepts. There are generally guidelines as to what are the complete collection of notes you pull from with any attack. Obviously, when playing solo, you have more freedom, but generally there is a harmonic concept going on even with solo playing. It's one of those details about creating balance with reference to the performance.

That being said, I gig all the time with players that play what they know... instinctively. Most of the time it works.

So there's the choice of which notes or chord is implied, and then the performance aspect of implying that chord by whatever means you choose to play that tonal area. Be it a short or long attack duration.

The intervallic aspect or relationships between notes has a reference... a tonal reference. There are many tonal systems. But that spatial organization of notes played... still has harmonic references. That harmonic reference can be camouflaged... be subtle, sophisticated, what ever textural concept being employed... we're talking two different issues... one is the harmonic aspect, the other is the choice of organizing the performance of that harmonic aspect.

Both are important... but generally there are no organizational aspects unless there is a harmonic reference...which notes to create intervals with. And with guitar... it's always difficult to choose voicings which imply the harmonic content and still create textural interest.

[ecj]

Playing solo piano is rich in extensions. And the beauty of playing solo is you're your own bass player.

For what guitar players refer to as 'chord melody' jazz piano players by and large aren't going to have the melody dictate their use of extensions. No matter the chord I rarely, if ever, play a basic voicing, and a triad only when it's voiced in 2nd inversion resulting in the interval of a 4th and Maj3rd between the notes. Intervallic relationships between voiced notes is more important than chosen notes for it's the interval that creates your sound. In that regard the INTERVAL is king....but the piano is a painters complete color palette...different instrument different rules.

I think this is all true of guitar, as well. We just have a much more limited set of possibilities for any given musical moment. I just think it's a good idea for beginners to start off really understanding the way 3rd and 7ths move and how the standard bass cadences are structured before they start adding color tones.

It's really easy to tell who the players are that understand the relationship between the melody and the harmony, and who the players are who learned a bunch of voicings out of a book and are putting them wherever they "fit". In my experience inexperienced piano players commit this sin as much if not more than guitar players because they tend to want to press all of the keys all of the time. There's nothing worse than trying to sing a fifth in the melody and have some dude who just read Mark Levine throw a #11 on the top of his voicing. Aural chaos ensues.

[2bornot2bop]

I'm confused by your post. a beginners own ears instructs them the appropriate harmonic choice against any melody note. nothing is more obvious than the clash between half steps.

but since you've chosen to associate your comments with an unknown number of users of an unknown Levine book, it shoud be stated...Levine's jazz piano book specifically addresses the point of what he commonly refers to as "avoid notes."

Levine's book takes the average jazz piano student years of serious study to begin to absorb. and even Levine instructs the user his is a book that merely scratches the surface on voicings. where have we heard that before.

[jtizzle]

Ideally, you want to play the extensions the soloist is implying.
He's playing a b9? you don't want to play a natural 9. Natural 5? don't sharp it. You get it...

A good thing to listen to for this are piano trios. Since they're comping for themselves as they play lines, as opposed to guitarists who comp between lines, they're playing the voicings they want, basically, they're the sax player who's also playing the exact chords he wants under his soloing.

A good thing to practice to is to listen to sax trios (sax, bass, drums) and comp for the sax player. Really listen to what he's doing. Try to map it out if you have to, that way you'll really know what he's doing, if he's implying a reharmonization, adding in some other chords, and as to your question, what extensions he's implying.

[drobniuch]

great post Reg ty

[ecj]

I'm confused by your post. a beginners own ears instructs them the appropriate harmonic choice against any melody note. nothing is more obvious than the clash between half steps.

but since you've chosen to associate your comments with an unknown number of users of an unknown Levine book, it shoud be stated...Levine's jazz piano book specifically addresses the point of what he commonly refers to as "avoid notes."

Levine's book takes the average jazz piano student years of serious study to begin to absorb. and even Levine instructs the user his is a book that merely scratches the surface on voicings. where have we heard that before.

It's only obvious if you're listening to what's happening around you which is, unfortunately, not an uncommon issue among inexperienced musicians.

I'm not sure I get why you are implying that I'm being mysterious ("unknown users" and "unknown book"). My comment was in response to the OPs question and is pretty pointed: if you're asking how to figure out which notes to include in a voicing, you could stand to benefit from boiling everything down to its most basic form and then experimenting with adding/removing things.

Ever heard the Lester Young quote? "Just play the vanilla changes and I'll take care of everything else".

[2bornot2bop]

It's only obvious if you're listening to what's happening around you which is, unfortunately, not an uncommon issue among inexperienced musicians.

I'm not sure I get why you are implying that I'm being mysterious ("unknown users" and "unknown book"). My comment was in response to the OPs question and is pretty pointed: if you're asking how to figure out which notes to include in a voicing, you could stand to benefit from boiling everything down to its most basic form and then experimenting with adding/removing things.

Ever heard the Lester Young quote? "Just play the vanilla changes and I'll take care of everything else".

This. Not exactly an implication...here's the direct quote.

"There's nothing worse than trying to sing a fifth in the melody and have some dude who just read Mark Levine throw a #11 on the top of his voicing."

No, I don't come here for piano lessons.

[pkirk]

SO much depends on context. Are you playing solo guitar or in a group? are you going for a full sound or a sparce sound? Are you going for a count Basie vibe or a Richie Beirach vibe? Ultimately we find and use voicings that reflect what we like to hear. I found over the years that for every 30 chord voicings I practice , only one or two stick, and usually right away: I think it is because I instantly connect with them. but I keep looking and more get addd from time to time.

[Reg]

Just thought I would remind... many of our comments... are talking about two different issues.

1) there are the harmonic issues... what are the correct practices. Not what we like or believe to be correct, what has become common practice for different jazz styles. The basic reference we start with, we can add our personal character to this harmonic jazz practice. We use subs, even reharmonize a little... but all with reference to that common practice.

2) then there is the performance aspect... voicings, the context...all the different methods we play those common practice jazz concepts of harmony.

The so called chord economics... that's cool term, is involved in both aspect of comping.

[Jonzo]

One thing this thread has made be courious about is: What is your starting point?

I think mine is the seventh chords. Then I think about whether I want to sub an extension for a note in that chord, or just leave a note out.

I suppose some people start with just the 7 and 3, and decide what to add. Others might start with the full extended chord and decide what to leave out.

What is your starting point?

[Reg]

One thing this thread has made be courious about is: What is your starting point?

I think mine is the seventh chords. Then I think about whether I want to sub an extension for one of the extensions for a note in that chord, or just leave a note out.

I suppose some people start with just the 7 and 3, and decide what to add. Others might start with the full extended chord and decide what to leave out.

What is your starting point?

Hey Jonzo... I've said it probably too many times... with reference to Jazz...Mine is 7th chords. Extensions and triads are in reference to. Those 7th chords would have an implied complete structure... all the extensions etc... but when I choose to use the rest of the implied note collections, all the extensions... there's a reason, an organizational method of using.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

In today's economy, I can only afford three note chords.