List of Tunes with More Than Two Tonal Centers

[eddy b.]

Hey guys I am trying to get a list of tunes together that have more than two tonal centers ala Giant Steps. Let me clarify by tunes I mean songs that have words that can be sung, I don't mean all the Coltrane Matrix songs that have been composed by jazz musicians for jazz musicians etc. so far all I can come up with is - All the Things You Are, Have You Met Miss Jones,Green Dolphin St. and Sleigh Ride. I know there has to be a lot more...your input will be reatly appreciated thanks!!

[RyanM]

Christmas Song

[mr. beaumont]

Man, there's tons...

The Song is You, I'll Remember April, Dolphin Dance...those shot into my head right away...time to grab some Real Books...

[Vladan]

Do they have to be 'Jazz'? Currently I'm preparing one pop masterpiece for butchering and use in my next Youtube clip.
Roxy music@ 'Oh Yeah, on the radio'. First it's in G, than in C, and god knows what in betveen.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Michael Franks Down In Brazil:

//: A MA7 / A MA7 / Am7 / D7 /

G MA7 / G MA7 / Gm7 / C7 /

F MA7 / F MA7 / Fm7 / Bb7 /

EbMA7 / EbMA7 / Ebm7 / Ab7 /

DbMA7 / DbMA7 / Dbm7 / Gb7 /

B MA7 / B MA7 / Bm7 / E7 ://

It`s like an Aebersole excercise!

EDIT: for extra laughs, treat that E7 like a tritone sub and follow it by a chorus starting on EbMaj7 -- you get to play the other 6 keys!

[jseaberry]

Invitation?

[Petimar]

Tune Up
Have You Met miss Jones
Ornithology
It You Or No One
Joy Spring

Many more...

[JakeAcci]

Emily

Body and Soul

prelude to a ksis

a lot...many tunes modulate to a dif key in the bridge

and then there's debate about what is truly a modulation and what not

does cherokee modulate?

[srlank]

Watch What Happens
Wave
You Stepped Out of a Dream

[Little Jay]

Even There Will Never Be Another You already has 3 tonal centres (Eb, Gmaj and Emaj for a couple of bars). That's why they call it jazz, right?

[shrp11]

A couple of pop standards come to mind:

"Hello it's Me" from Todd Rundgren

"Golden Lady" from Stevie Wonder

[JanLF]

Even There Will Never Be Another You already has 3 tonal centres (Eb, Gmaj and Emaj for a couple of bars). That's why they call it jazz, right?

Hi, this one I really didn't get? What am I missing? I thought this in Eb goes by it's relative minor Cm VIm and then II-V to IVmaj7 - Abmaj7, and sort goes by a Bb key center on F7 if you want a make the V/V mixolydian instead of lydian b7 and back to Imaj - Eb! Help me out

Jan

[eddy b.]

Thank you everyone for your response. Part of this for me is a quest to find the "limits" of harmony for popular music and how that applies to the Mt. Everest of Harmony 26-2 which to me is the culmination of the Giant Steps Coltrane Matrix. I am interested in why film music ( especially scary movies) can be so chromatic,20th century tone row, serial, and audiences don't leave the film probably because it heightens the scariness but Classical Concert Series and Modern Jazz (which seem to utilize a lot of 20th century compositional techniques) has yet to truly develop a wide audience for these sounds. I try to get my students to listen to Schoenberg and they really are averse to the "sound" of it yet when watching excerpts from the film "Mephostopholis" they never say anything about not liking the music. So thanks for your input I will check out the tunes you all recomended and see what I can come up with. By the way for my money the greatest CD ever made that blurs all boundaries of genre and harmony is "Laughing Stock" by Talk Talk. It is really worth your time checking it out. Thanks again!

[Vladan]

So, you ar popster. Nice. It just occured to me, ABBA is (in)famous for modulations, it's kinda omnipresent in their songs.

[ColinO]

Thank you everyone for your response. Part of this for me is a quest to find the "limits" of harmony for popular music and how that applies to the Mt. Everest of Harmony 26-2 which to me is the culmination of the Giant Steps Coltrane Matrix. I am interested in why film music ( especially scary movies) can be so chromatic,20th century tone row, serial, and audiences don't leave the film probably because it heightens the scariness but Classical Concert Series and Modern Jazz (which seem to utilize a lot of 20th century compositional techniques) has yet to truly develop a wide audience for these sounds. I try to get my students to listen to Schoenberg and they really are averse to the "sound" of it yet when watching excerpts from the film "Mephostopholis" they never say anything about not liking the music. So thanks for your input I will check out the tunes you all recomended and see what I can come up with. By the way for my money the greatest CD ever made that blurs all boundaries of genre and harmony is "Laughing Stock" by Talk Talk. It is really worth your time checking it out. Thanks again!

Wow, this is so interesting. I can't imagine that it can be thoroughly discussed in a blog like this. Movie music, I think, is the "classical", music of our time. The best musicians are writing it and the best players are playing it. I guess time will be the judge but is there any other music that competes?

[Little Jay]

Hi, this one I really didn't get? What am I missing? I thought this in Eb goes by it's relative minor Cm VIm and then II-V to IVmaj7 - Abmaj7, and sort goes by a Bb key center on F7 if you want a make the V/V mixolydian instead of lydian b7 and back to Imaj - Eb! Help me out

Jan

Sorry man, I'm always mixing up titles.... I was thinking of All The Things You Are.....(which even starts in Ab and C before going to Eb). Sorry to put you on the wrong foot!

[JensL]

and then there's debate about what is truly a modulation and what not

does cherokee modulate?

That will probably be the biggest discussion

And I think it does

Jens

[JanLF]

That will probably be the biggest discussion

And I think it does

Jens

Hi, well of course it does
ATTYA also goes through 5 keys - Ab, C, Eb, G and E. (and 6 times to) .
I love you is 2 keys - F, A
Darn that dream is 3 keys, G, Eb, Gm.
Heavy Metal Miss Jones F, Bb, Gb and D.

[bako]

and then there's debate about what is truly a modulation and what not

Probably a thread unto itself.

Sometimes notes beyond the basic 7 note scales are introduced.
This in itself in my opinion does not automatically represent a modulation, although it does preclude adapting the note collection.
In Classical theory there are guidelines (that others here can better describe) as to what constitutes the establishment of a new key.
Working in short forms is different than longer forms. Within 12, 16, 32, 64 bars, there is little time to establish new keys
for very long and still get home in time for dinner.

In some situations I prefer the idea of centricity to key center because it is less constrained to 7 notes being most important.

[randalljazz]

falling grace?

[eddy b.]

Hello Colin O. I am in agreement with you about the movie music...it certainly is at this time the most widely heard "avante garde" music of our time, although the music isn't the main focus of the presentation, which pretty much sums up the place of "serious" music in the 21st century and it's place in society(an after thought as part of a movie...for shame). From time to time I have students bring songbooks from Disney films and even these watered down beginner level books have some interesting changes and use of diminished chords at least more interesting changes than a lot of the "pop" music that I hear on radio. A concrete example of this is the melody from a Harry Potter movie from last year( I think it won an emmy for best film song, I think) very very modern sounding, I had little ten year old student bring in the music and ask to learn it...maybe there is reason to hope yet.

[JakeAcci]

falling grace?

Ooo, good one. And interesting to point out in terms of what is a "temporary" modulation, and a true sustained one...

To my ears it sounds like Gm, then G/Em, then Bb...so it's sort of all in the same family with relative minors and majors.

So then the question...if something has a section in, say, C, and a section in Am...is that two tonal centers?

[shrp11]

While there's been great film music written, music is not the core of what film music is all about.

Music for a film should support the narrative of the film - you shouldn't hear the music as pieces of music, it should really disappear into the fabric of the film. The old adage in the bizz is, if you notice the score, it's failed.

Much of today's film music is real junk - especially the celebrity-labeled stuff, it's just fluff that accompanies the visual - the art of composing a real score as an integral part of a film seems to have all bit disappeared. This partly because today's directors no longer have to "lock down" a film, they can edit to their heart's content right up to the deadline. This makes it next to impossible for a composer to write coherently (music isn't as malleable as video, an edited scene can make it necessary to throw out an entire cue and start over).

I've been writing music for film and television for over 20 years now, I've seen a lot of changes ...

[eddy b.]

Sharp 11 thanks for offering greater insight into the discussion. You bring up some points that I never even considered about the relationship of the music to the movie.I listened to your samples. Something There is really beautiful and resonated with me I love this music!! Thank You for making and sharing it!!

[eddy b.]

Hey Jake, the question of what is a true modulation is fun to consider, right? So in your example if a song modulates to the key of it's relative minor is that really a modulation. I guess Autumn Leaves would illustrate this pretty well especially because the melody going into the bridge utilizes the leading tone of the relative minor. With the harmony of the bridge being ii-v of the relative minor I guess most would say this is a true modulation to a new key. And maybe it is. It is a very smooth modulation,for certain and maybe one that is almost unnoticeable. The modulations that I find intriguing are the modulations of tonal centers by minor or major thirds. They outline large diminished or augmented sounds and can sound like complete polarity reversals in the music...as in whhaaaaaat just happened?? I am intrigued by finding ways to modulate using pivot chords and just the fun challenge of trying to make a tune modulate up a whole step for instance without it sounding like some big Barry Manilow ending.Know what I mean?? I was looking for tunes that utilize Three Tonal centers like Giant Steps to see 1 Are there tunes in the "pop" world that do this that average folk can sing, and 2 What tunes do this that would be fun to play and try to implement more of that Coltrane Matrix. I would love to read your thoughts on the subject of modulation.Ed