Method for exploring new structures and clusters within any tonality

[bako]

Tracing it to a scale is one good method because it fills in the cracks of an ambiguous structure.
The post tonalists would file it under G# B C D or 0 3 4 6, the sequence with the tightest intervals.
I haven't yet come to understand in what way is that info useful.

Another approach is to examine it in relation to each chromatic root from the perspective of 3 possible functions (major,minor, dominant)
Sometimes if 3 of 4 indicate a harmony but the 4th doesn't, it at times can be considered that chord plus a disrupter tone.
It is up to you to decide if the odd note provides an additional interesting color or wrecks the function.

For F7 and B7 try this on a keyboard.

A Eb G# C D B over an F bass note-----F13#9(#11)

or

A D# G# C D B over a B bass note-----B13b9#9

[JakeAcci]

Very cool Bako, thank you. I especially like the point "It is up to you to decide if the odd note provides an additional interesting color or wrecks the function."

[JakeAcci]

Fourth mode harmonic major is kind of neat. it's the same as melodic minor but with a raised 4/11.

1 2 b3 #4 5 6 7

For a while now I've had a special interest in minor sounds/scales that have a natural fifth and a #4.

Interesting that it contains a VII triad. By default I think our first way of recognizing something like E/F is as some sort of diminished seventh chord, with a natural seventh replacing the bb7.

It can be a bunch of things, but I stumbled upon this sturcture (tenth, step, fourth) within that mode and I liked what I got:

F x x Ab B E
G x x B C F
Ab x x C D G
B x x D E Ab
C x x E F B
D x x F G C
E x x G Ab D
F x x Ab B E

This relates a little bit to Randall's post recently on inverted quartals. The top three notes of these voicings are 2nd inversion of a pair of 4ths intervals, it's just that in harmonic major the "4th" between the 3rd and 6th degrees of the scale is really a major third.

[bako]

Most obvious to me:

FdimMa7 or Eaddb9 or Db7#9 or G13b9

or stretching a bit FmMa7b5 (homage to the recent m7b5 vs. half diminished discussion)

Listen and analyze in relation to each note of C harmonic major and or the chromatic scale.

Courtesy of the permutation tool

F,Ab,B,E

F,Ab,E,B

F,B,Ab,E

F,B,E,Ab

F,E,Ab,B

F,E,B,Ab

Ab,F,B,E

Ab,F,E,B

Ab,B,F,E

Ab,B,E,F

Ab,E,F,B

Ab,E,B,F

B,F,Ab,E

B,F,E,Ab

B,Ab,F,E

B,Ab,E,F

B,E,F,Ab

B,E,Ab,F

E,F,Ab,B

E,F,B,Ab

E,Ab,F,B

E,Ab,B,F

E,B,F,Ab

E,B,Ab,F

[JakeAcci]

Gotta love permutatin'. I just saw a quick Ben Monder clip on youtube where he briefly touched on the importance of familiarity with all 24 inversions of each 7th chord.

As I took your suggestion to analyze the structure over all 12 roots I realized I realized the triad over b9 exists in two places in harmonic major. If we're talking about C HM then E/F as well as G/Ab. Interesting that in one it's from a minor mode, in another, a lydian/major mode.

Also E/F is an interesting Bb7

[bako]

My friend took a one off lesson with Ben Monder who gave him 2 large projects.

One was all 7ths in 24 orders

The other was 7th arpeggios with multiple fingerings organized by string groups.

Slash Chord Pair

X X Ab B D G

X X F G# B E

Ab X G B D X

F X E G# B X

Ab D G B X X

F B E G# X X

Drop 2 Chord Pair

X X D Ab B G

X X E G# B F

X X B G Ab D

X X B F G# E

X X Ab D G B

X X G# E F B

X X G B D Ab

X X F B E G#

[JakeAcci]

Ab/G and E/F structure pair

Bako, those are cool, thanks, especially the drop 2 pair.

What would be some applications? The two chords are within the same dominant/diminished family if we think of the source as whole/half scale, so they could be two voicings for dominants of E, G, Bb, or Db, or diminished sevenths for either F, Ab, B, or D.

I guess, trying to stay somewhat 'on topic' each chord could be an interpretation of some harmonic major harmony, and the pair could represent two different harmonies from harmonic major...

For some reason I hear the pairs as vaguely ii V ish, I guess one interpretation, from C harmonic major, could be E/F = Dm13#11, G/Ab = G7b9

From C harm major I guess E/F could conceivably be

Dm13#11
E7b9 (E triad w b9)
Fdim,ma7, Fminmaj7#11
G13b9
Abdim7

G/Ab could conceivably be

a nice Cma7 sort of sound..Cma9,b13,no 3...I'm into it...

C x Ab D G B
C x B <G> Ab D (G as harmonic, rings out while the other 4 notes are played)
C x D Ab B G (top four notes first, then thumb taps C on low string)

anyway, weirdo Cma7,
could conceivably be an odd Ddim7
E7#9
Fm69#11 (better name for this?)
G7b9 (G triad w b9)
Abdimma7, Abma7#9#11
Bdim7

So it could be a combo of any of those harmonies, I guess.

Any other applications? I hear the sound of those pairs as being something possibly out of my grasp, some other applications I'm not aware of.

-----

Vma7#5 to I

Only vaguely related to the above, I'm back at this thread because of the whole I/b9 thing...

Just something quirky I realized:

common move:

Cdim7 C6

B/C is a Cdim7, so

B/C C6

instead of the root pedal, have dominant root motion:

B/G C6

could be written as

Gma7#5 C6

is this an example of 'voice leading' overriding what we normally might think of as 'function?'

I've been looking at Debussy and Ravel scores lately and have found some instances of Vma7#5 leading to one, or things like that. With my verbal vocabulary for harmony I can only say that it's simply interesting voice leading, each melody moves in a logical way, their vertical result might be surprising...

Just looking at it int his simply way (voices moving in half steps, maybe constant structure with VII triad over V pedal) the Vma7#5 makes sense...even can sound kind of 'vanilla'.

Thoughts, comments? Just tinkering with ideas. This isn't the meal or even the meat, more like browsing a catalog of seasonings...

[Reg]

Hey Jake... Haven't been following... sorry, might be out of context...

I always use lead lines in a melodic voice leading manor. Many time I hear and use the voices as independent structures with different references.
The easy hear is Blues reference lead line over almost any functional harmonic progression... or visa versa. The actual notes don't need to fit in each other harmonic box. They are able to function independently.

So simply take that concept... independent structures functioning with in themselves... having relationships with other independent functional structures functioning with in themselves.

And create applications... somewhat just like what your doing.
Eventually that duel functioning concept will become one concept. Recognizable with reference for relationships.

As far as imposing hierarchy of guidelines from existing systems... just a numbers game of references and relationships
Reg

[bako]

Jake,

Rather than detailed examples, let me suggest a methodology that you probably are already aware of.

If notes seem to point towards a possible harmonic interpretation then put it into a simple context that supports that interpretation.
See if the notes sound believable in the role they are being cast.

a nice Cma7 sort of sound..Cma9,b13,no 3...I'm into it...

Context test: CMa to FMa I-IV

Major version

X X C E G B or X X C D G B

X F X E G C

Augmented expansion

X X C E G# B or X X C D G# B

X F X E G C

A Combo version with both G and Ab/G#

(C) X Ab D G B

X F X E G C

Voice leading can sometimes alter what seems implausible to believable.
As our hearing evolves, yesterdays "that's just too strange" can morph into something very user friendly.
Not always.....

[Reg]

It's been somewhat standard composition practice for the last twenty years to mix different tonal applications. Especially if either one is established to the point where the harmonic function, how the chord progression moves is preheard, we hear all the functional movement whether it physically happens or not.

So we can add to that harmonic movement ornamentally... With any type of organization going on with the ornamentation. Or we can impose a new established functional progression over or under... Somewhat like poly chords or pedal applications.

You can analyze and group the two systems together and use same reference or as I was saying above ... They can function independently... Much like blue note concepts, constant structural concepts etc...

Bakos approach is great for after the fact analysis, as Long as your ears can hear what your searching for. Personally I'm always using both methods... I structurally design as well as fact check... Check to make sure I'm not simply relabeling.

Voice leading as bako mentioned camouflages with implied relationships... There seems to always be a balance ... How much established, easy to hear with not established relationships, and that balance can be camouflagued and weighted by any number of musical details...

Nice thread you have going, thanks Reg