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Hi there and welcome (me) to the forum
I just had my first jazz guitar lesson this morning. I've been playing guitar for over 20 years, but have only fairly recently started moving into jazz.
My teacher said "we just always the chords out", so if it says Dm, we play Dm11; D7 goes to D9 or D13, etc.
I'd like to know some more about this - I understand what the chords are (e.g. how to make a 13), but what can you tell me about whether (and when) I should extend chords above what it says on the chart?
He also said he always plays a maj7 where it asks for a 6, which seems a bit more odd to me. We played through an example where it sounded fine with the maj7, but I'm not sure about the guideline on that.
Thanks very much!
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07-09-2012 09:44 AM
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As you might have been able to guess, it all depends on context. The extensions that you can add all have to do with the scale or key you're trying to imply or outline. So if you have a ii-V-I in CMaj, your ii chord can be a Dm7... or a Dm6, or a Dm6/9 or a Dm9, or a Dm11, etc, etc because all of those tensions and upper structures are implied because it sounds like a ii chord.
For CMaj7 vs C6, just think about them as a major sounding chord, which gives you the qualities 1, 3, 5, 6, 7, 9..... So if you see a C6 chord, you're usually safe to assume that it has those qualities (and it sometimes has a #11 too, if it's Lydian sounding).
The G7 can go in a lot of directions, though. I don't know how much you know about alterations, but there are a lot of upper structures that you could use for a dominant chord that imply all sorts of different things.
In the end though, it all depends on how it sounds. Don't think that you have to extend your chords all the time; as a matter of fact, I recommend that you start by learning all of your drop 2 chords and your 1-3-7 chords before starting to think about extensions. Your teacher chooses Maj7 instead of 6 chords because he prefers the sound. One person may prefer Dm9 while you like Dm11. It's all about making music in the end.
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Whatever facilitates good voice leading, doesn't clash with the melody, or supports or spurs on a soloist comes first. I don't add extensions "just because."
That said, there is a lot of color to be found outside the tetrachord, and i'm definitely often adding tension to my dominant chords, but not willy nilly, but fkr the above reasons.
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You should extend the chords when appropriate. However there are many places where you wouldn't or do so with care
Originally Posted by lindsayward
One place to be careful is when comping, especially with a keyboard player or soloist. You can get plenty of mileage out of plain old 7th chords (especially the shell versions that leave out the 5th)
Regarding the 6th, that was the 'rule' so to speak. However it is a useful chord none the less.
Joe Pass used it all the time to handle chords that had the root in the melody and bass. Eb6 with Eb in the melody (x Eb G C Eb x)
It also works well when you have a major chord that lasts for a couple of bars and you want to change things up a bit
ex : Gma7 - G6 - G+ -G6 or just Gma7- G6
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Depends on the context. When I'm comping for my trad jazz combo, I stick to the basic chords and their inversions unless I want to do a fill.
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All good answers here. It will become clearer in time.
Basically, there are three families of chords. Major, minor and dominant. Minor can throw you a curve every once in a while, but major and dominant are pretty reliable.
It's true you can use the Maj 7 instead of a Maj 6. Just let your ears be your guide. If you are getting tired of the Maj 7 sound, Major 6 is one of your options to change things up a bit.
Eventually, you'll find progressions you like and you'll just use them more often. Some will be extended to get nice voice leading.
It's all grist for the mill. Good luck. And when you really got it figured out, let me know, will you?
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Hi and thanks for the replies so far! My first experience posting on this forum has certainly been positive - I appreciate it
As far as I can tell the charts for standards are often somewhat "generic" in the sense that the arranger hasn't really decided that must be a Dm, but that the tonality is basically a Dm and the player can use something more exotic if they want. There is inherent flexibility in the charts I'll be following...
is that basically right?
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Yes and no. Originally Posted by lindsayward
Hi and thanks for the replies so far! My first experience posting on this forum has certainly been positive - I appreciate it
As far as I can tell the charts for standards are often somewhat "generic" in the sense that the arranger hasn't really decided that must be a Dm, but that the tonality is basically a Dm and the player can use something more exotic if they want. There is inherent flexibility in the charts I'll be following...
is that basically right?
In the real book, you'll often find alterations and extensions noted. In some cases it can be colors that are often played on that tune by tradition, or it can just be the melody note written in the chord symbol.
Either way, if you know what extensions and alterations a chord can take depending on its function, you are free to use the options you'd like that will sound good. This is how real players approach it. You'll never hear a good player use the same extensions and alterations for the same chord chorus after chorus because what really dictates extensions and alterations is voice leading. You always seek to voice lead your chords smoothly and then you decide on extensions alterations that sound good in context deciding from what was before and what comes after the chord.
And then there are circumstances like the style you're playing in.
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So if a chart has a simple major chord (e.g. G), then I pick an extension based on whether it would be a major 7 or dominant 7...
and I would decide that based on the key (if we're in G it's maj7, if in C it's dominant) - but if we've modulated and I'm not sure of the key anymore then... this is probably a question for another topic
e.g. in my All the Things You Are chart in Ab it goes: Ab Db G7 C, so if I see a C in Ab I think it will have a Bb (C7) not a B (Cmaj7), but we've just played a G7 (with a B) so a Cmaj7 sounds better now... did we just change key?
... to me, here a regular G7 sounds better leading into the Cmaj7 (if that's what I play next) than a G9 or G13 since the F leads to the E better than the E or A to E... am I on the right track?
And to clarify, when we talk about "voice leading", it's about what note in our own chords is outlining some kind of melody or counter-melody, rather than someone else's voice that is leading us, right?
Thanks for your answers. I'll try not to ask all my questions at once, but I really do appreciate your support!
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Jazz is not that simple, sorry. That's why it takes years to play and many times musicians never really become jazz players... they cover jazz tunes. No right, wrong, good or bad... just the way it is.
To answer your question about simply being able to read the notation from charts, fake books. Every note or chord implies a complete collection of notes. Generally that collection of notes reflects the tonally or modally implied tonal center... and then what ever relationships are going on, the harmonic system(s) being employed and then the part that takes time to be able to hear... in jazz all single chord structures generally imply chord patterns. Chord patterns are commonly used chord progressions that are part of the language of playing jazz. They generally come from tunes, standards and how those tunes and standards have been developed harmonically over the years.
I guess I could make a list of common patterns, but that would be a thread in it's self. I did start a thread a while back about playing tunes in a jazz style... I'll try to get something together...
Anyway all those notes and changes are always implied... they don't always get played. But just because you don't hear them or there not played... doesn't mean they're not there.
The more you play jazz... live jazz with other jazz players. the more you will begin to hear and recognize jazz harmony. Think of a basic blues... now think and try and hear how many versions, jazz version there are.
Pick a tune you know... and I'll make a video of how jazz players might play through... where and what can be implied. I'll verbally explain what's implied by basic changes and melody. It's not simply plug and play the chord and melody notes with reference to implied tonal center.
Reg
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Confusing. I interpret as the teacher is telling you that you "always" have to play the extensions. If that's the case then I would start looking into other options for a teacher.My teacher said "we just always the chords out", so if it says Dm, we play Dm11; D7 goes to D9 or D13, etc.It's not that cut and dry. Depends on what you're trying to say in your improv, i.e. solo content--melodic lines, embelishments, chordal etc. The only time I see things as hard and fast is when I'm playing a specific arrangement--chord melody being the most obvious example.what can you tell me about whether (and when) I should extend chords above what it says on the chart?
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Put simply, the thing to remember is that a chart is a suggestion, not an ultimatum.
I'll yry to do a video today about what a chart "implies." it's something i enjoy teaching...
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"I'll try to do a video today about what a chart "implies.""
Hey that would be great!
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Mr. B, gonna look forward to that.
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Once again, thank you all so much for giving your time to helping me out.
I'm certainly aware that there are no simple fixed rules, but I'd like to learn as many guidelines as I can. One of these is clearly about listening and playing what sounds good, and I am immersing myself as much as possible in jazz music and playing with others whenever I get the chance. Some things are starting to happen naturally that I like, so that's good.
One of the things I'd like is a sort of "road map" to a suggested (I won't say "best") way and order to learn... I'll start another thread about that.
but still happy to hear anyone else's contributions to this one.
Thanks ... and I'm really looking forward to those videos; I'll watch here for links!
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I have a feeling this is one of those rare cases where it's not quite as complex as it seems. But it is difficult to communicate that in words. I'm sure you will soon get the idea with your teacher. It's the kind of thing that it is much easier to show and to do than to talk about.
If Jeff is going to post a video, that will certainly help a lot. He's the real deal and knows how to communicate.
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Great players often play basic chords, but they have great command of them.
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I've obviously failed to get the vid done today...teaching all day tomorrow...maybe thursday...sorry guys...
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That's it! You're fired! Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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It would seem that the OP might benefit from understanding the basics before moving on to extensions (let alone alterations). I think the Fareed Haque TrueFire course ("jazz comping survival guide") is excellent at providing a simple & extendible guide to comping over blues and standards. You start with 2-note chords (3rds and 7ths) and move on from there. Well worth the money, IMNSHO.
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+1. Originally Posted by FatJeff
As good a place to start as any and IMHO better than many. Wished I'd had that available when I began.
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Thanks for the input so far.
I've watched all of the free clips on Truefire for the Fareed Haque comping guide. Looks interesting.
I've started reading Mark Levine's Jazz Theory Book and found it reinforces a few things from the lesson, including a 6 chord being another kind of maj7. I'm starting to see the chord as more of an indication of the harmony at that point rather than a specific collection of notes to play.
I started sitting in with a big band last year and it seems their charts are much more specific as the arrangements are much more rigid.
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Hi. I just thought I'd post again to let you know I'm still keen on the video(s). If there was any chance that might be possible, I'd be very appreciative, thanks.
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