cycle of fifths/piano/voice leading

[jster]

1) What do we call the cycle that goes Cmaj7-Fmaj7-Bm7b5-Em7-Am7-Dm7-G7-Cmaj7? How about the minor cycle, Cm7-Fm7-Bb7-Ebmaj7-Abmaj7-Dm7b5-G7-Cm7?

2) Is it safe to say that every part of these progressions is pretty common?

3) Most important question: When they teach those cycles (or the cycle of fifths) to piano players, how do they teach them to do the voice leading? For example, do they just teach them to move the bass down up down up down up down up? What about the other notes? If they teach them more than one way to do the voice leading, what are the alternatives? I'm basically interested in piano cycles as a way of getting insight into the densest ways (ie those with least movement) and best sounding ways to cycle through (4 and 8 note bits of) arpeggios.

Thanks in advance.

[brwnhornet59]

It is playing the harmonized C major scale through it's circle of 4ths (back cycling in 5ths).

Your second example is going the same thing with the harmonized C minor scale.

Yes, common and essential. Notice iii vi ii V I. These ideas are the building blocks of jazz and allow for smooth transitions. Try playing this cycle using secondary and extended dominants as well.

The chords are stacked on top of each other as you descend so voice leading is an easy thing to play around with. 3rd and 7th is easy to follow from one leading tone to the next. Lots of variation. Add in a chromatic note here and there and you are having fun and sounding good doing it...

[JohnRoss]

1) What do we call the cycle that goes Cmaj7-Fmaj7-Bm7b5-Em7-Am7-Dm7-G7-Cmaj7?

It's called the diatonic cycle of fifths. The logic is that it's a cycle of fifths within a single key, as brwnhornet59 says, as opposed to the unqualified cycle of fifths, where the chords change by intervals of a perfect fifth ( C - F - Bb, etc.). The diatonic cycle of fifths instead goes perfect 5th, diminished fifth, then all perfect fifths, in order to stay within the key.

(I'm sure you know this, but just for clarity, there is no difference between cycle of fifths and cycle of fourths, because fifths and fourths are inversions of each other - C - F is a fourth ascending and a fifth descending. So whether you think fourths or fifths is only that, a matter of mentality. Jazz theorists tend to prefer the term cycle of fourths, classical ones cycle of fifths.)

How about the minor cycle, Cm7-Fm7-Bb7-Ebmaj7-Abmaj7-Dm7b5-G7-Cm7?

It's as near as dammit a (diatonic) minor cycle of fifths, but modulating to the relative major. Strictly, that minor 7th should really be a minor chord with a major seventh (CmM7), and that Bb7 should be a B diminished (probably diminished seventh, with an Ab, occasionally a half-diminished seventh, with an A natural). You can play the whole thing entirely within the C harmonic minor scale, which requires the awkward Eb+M7, like this:
Cm(maj7)-Fm7-Bº-Eb#5maj7-Abmaj7-Dm7b5-G7-Cm(maj7)
but real tunes generally modulate to the relative major (Eb) instead, as you do, thusly:
Cm(maj7)-Fm7-Bb7-Eb+maj7-Abmaj7-Dm7b5-G7-Cm(maj7)
That last Cm(maj7) is even more important than the first, because the G7 contains the leading note (B) which tells the listener the tune has modulated back to the minor key, so unless a Bb appears in the melody (meaning the key isn't really Cm but Eb), you have no justification for using it to harmonize. In practice, it's often safer to omit this seventh altogether, just in case.

[jster]

Thanks guys. But the thing I really want to know is about the voice leading. How do they teach it to piano players who can play all the chords in root position? So you begin with CEGB. When you play the FACE, where are each of the notes in relation to the CEGB? And then when you get to the BDFA, where are each of those notes in relation to the FACE? There must be one or two standard ways that they teach it to piano players. Do they just bounce up and down with root voicings? Or do they alternate root voicings with other voicings in order to voice lead? If somebody could just map out the first two steps for how they standardly do it, I would be most appreciative. Yeah, of course there are various options, but I am curious what the standard ways of teaching it to piano students in the beginning are.

[fep]

Thanks guys. But the thing I really want to know is about the voice leading. How do they teach it to piano players who can play all the chords in root position? So you begin with CEGB. When you play the FACE, where are each of the notes in relation to the CEGB? And then when you get to the BDFA, where are each of those notes in relation to the FACE? There must be one or two standard ways that they teach it to piano players. Do they just bounce up and down with root voicings? Or do they alternate root voicings with other voicings in order to voice lead? If somebody could just map out the first two steps for how they standardly do it, I would be most appreciative. Yeah, of course there are various options, but I am curious what the standard ways of teaching it to piano students in the beginning is.

This is a very common piano way, bottom two notes in the left hand, top two in right hand

(notes listed are from low to high)

Dm7 1 7 3 5 - D C F A

G9 1 3 7 9 - G B F A

Cmaj7 1 7 3 5 - C B E G

[jster]

Thanks Fep. But do you want the 9 in there? Can we do it without that? Does the bass just go up then down then up then down like with a guitar? I guess it must. But then what are the relative positions of the other notes?

[fep]

Thanks Fep. But do you want the 9 in there? Can we do it without that? Does the bass just go up then down then up then down like with a guitar? I guess it must. But then what are the relative positions of the other notes?

that is probably the most common piano way of voicing something moving down in 5ths, the most common if you're including the roots.

The A of 9th is there to create smooth voice leading. Note that other than the roots, noting moves by more than a whole step

[jster]

So if you go through the whole cycle, does every other one have a 9? And does the bass just go up and down?

[ten left thumbs]

Coming to this rather late, I may be able to help, but could you please specify the question again? What progression exactly do you want to know about? And do you mean with root in bass or rootless?

Bear in mind, no tune goes through the whole cycle of 5ths. An exercise might!

[jster]

Coming to this rather late, I may be able to help, but could you please specify the question again? What progression exactly do you want to know about? And do you mean with root in bass or rootless?

Bear in mind, no tune goes through the whole cycle of 5ths. An exercise might!

Just take the diatonic cycle of fifths for a major scale. How do they teach piano students to do it the first time they teach them?

Cmaj7-Fmaj7-Bm7b5-Em7-Am7-Dm7-G7-Cmaj7

Or, if there are a couple of standard ways to voice lead it on piano what are they? I meant with a root. But if rootless is edifying, then I would like both rooted and rootless.

[JohnRoss]

...the voice leading. How do they teach it to piano players who can play all the chords in root position?

I'm not saying they don't, but what makes you think they do? As opposed to just teaching them Bach, Handel et al? Is there something about the piano that makes you think they get access to arcane secrets guitarists don't?

So you begin with CEGB. When you play the FACE, where are each of the notes in relation to the CEGB? And then when you get to the BDFA, where are each of those notes in relation to the FACE?

The great thing about the cycle of fifths is that once you've worked out the first two or three chords, everything else follows:

Chord - melody note
C - C
F - C
Bm7b5 - B
Em - B
Am - A
Dm - A
G7 - G

I mean, this is how it works, what does it matter if it's a guitar or a piano or an accordion or a glockospiel? You sit down and think about it, that's what learning music is about. You can do these instead:

C - E
F - F
Bhalfº - D
Em - E
etc.

or

C - G
F - F
Bhalfº - F
Em - E
etc.

or, a bit more complicated:

C - E
F - F
Bhalfº - F
Em - G
Am - A
Dm - A
G7 - B
C - C

etc. etc.

Sit down and explore, that's the way to go.

[bako]

Here's one possibility.

CEGB---CEFA---BDFA---BDEG---ACEG---ACDF---GBDF---GBCE

GBCE---FACE---FABD---EGBD---EGAC---DFAC---DFGB----CEGB

EGBC---EFAC---DFAB---DEGB---CEGA---CDFA---BDFG---BCEG

BCEG---ACEF---ABDF---GBDE---GACE---FACD---FGBD---EGBC

[jster]

I'm not saying they don't, but what makes you think they do?

Trying to have your cake and eat it to?

As opposed to just teaching them Bach, Handel et al? Is there something about the piano that makes you think they get access to arcane secrets guitarists don't?

Yes I do think they may have a few secrets with respect to patterns that guitarists don't. They can play any four note voicing they want and teach it to students early. But I don't know. So I asked.

The great thing about the cycle of fifths is that once you've worked out the first two or three chords, everything else follows:

Chord - melody note
C - C
F - C
Bm7b5 - B
Em - B
Am - A
Dm - A
G7 - G

I mean, this is how it works, what does it matter if it's a guitar or a piano or an accordion or a glockospiel? You sit down and think about it, that's what learning music is about. You can do these instead:

C - E
F - F
Bhalfº - D
Em - E
etc.

or

C - G
F - F
Bhalfº - F
Em - E
etc.

or, a bit more complicated:

C - E
F - F
Bhalfº - F
Em - G
Am - A
Dm - A
G7 - B
C - C

etc. etc.

Sit down and explore, that's the way to go.

Of course. I've been doing stuff all week but I wan't to make sure that I am not missing something basic.

[jster]

Here's one possibility.

CEGB---CEFA---BDFA---BDEG---ACEG---ACDF---GBDF---GBCE

GBCE---FACE---FABD---EGBD---EGAC---DFAC---DFGB----CEGB

EGBC---EFAC---DFAB---DEGB---CEGA---CDFA---BDFG---BCEG

BCEG---ACEF---ABDF---GBDE---GACE---FACD---FGBD---EGBC

Thanks bako. But what do you think the smoothest voice leading would be if you were to do it with the root in the bass? (Or the third in the bass, or the fifth, or the seventh.) Isn't there a process for voice leading?

[jster]

I like this (thinking in terms of arpeggios):

G B C E>C E F A>F A B D>...

I love the way you loose two notes and gain two. And it is fine if you are moving up. But all it does is rise. (And it is probably not really voice leading.)

If you don't want to rise so quickly, what is the best way to link the 4 note collections? As you can see here, I don't particularly care which note is serving as the first/bass. I would like it if it is the same note though. I'm kinda shocked there doesn't seem to be some standard voice leading procedure.

[jster]

Thanks again bako. Maybe you just have to play the bass in the other hand and deal with it separately from the voice leading.

[bako]

Voice lead the triads in the right hand over the roots in the left

I---Em
IV--Am
VII-Dm
III-G
VI-C
II--F
V--Bdim
I---Em

[ten left thumbs]

Just take the diatonic cycle of fifths for a major scale. How do they teach piano students to do it the first time they teach them?

Cmaj7-Fmaj7-Bm7b5-Em7-Am7-Dm7-G7-Cmaj7

Or, if there are a couple of standard ways to voice lead it on piano what are they? I meant with a root. But if rootless is edifying, then I would like both rooted and rootless.

Not been to jazz piano school, so I'm not sure what is normally taught. Certainly ii-V-Is are. I've been taught 4-note single-handed voicings.

So for the Dm-G7-C I would do:

FACE
FAGE
EGAD

For the relative minor I would do:

ABDF
G#CDF
F# BCE

For Cmaj7:
EGAD

and for Fmaj7:
EGAC

There are a couple of principles:

1. Move as little as possible, except where you need to.
2. 3679 or 7936 voicings sound good.
3. These voicings sound good around and just below middle C. Go much higher and it will sound tinny. Go much lower and it will sound muddy.
4. With voice leading, progressions tend to descend, so sometimes you have to move to prevent yourself getting too low.

Roots would not normally be added as a routine thing, unless you've got 3 hands.

There are also two-handed voicings but I've not read that chapter.

If you ask here (Pianist Corner - Non Classical - Piano World Piano & Digital Piano Forums) you'll get more answers.

[ten left thumbs]

Rarely have I been so good at stopping a conversation!

[jster]

Rarely have I been so good at stopping a conversation!

Thanks thumbs, but I don't want 9's and I do want roots. If you want to keep the conversation going, then just tell me what they do with the roots. I have asked it twice. ( I am going to look for smiley short hand because this list of 11 ain't doing it for me. I'm kinda shocked that expression is so limited on a music site! Mods, maybe we can pass the hat for a smiley upgrade? Heck, I'd gladly pay a monthly fee for more smilies to choose from.)

[brwnhornet59]

then just tell me what they do with the roots. I have asked it twice.

Hey man, I mentioned in my post that 3rd 7th are the easiest tones to use. Look at what the 3rd 7th turn into when moving to the next chord. Note their relationships as you move. The 3rd turns into the next chords 5th etc... How you treat the root once you smoothly arrive is is up to you. Voice leading is not hard, just needs to be practiced. You can do a lot with 3rd 7th root and a chromatic note. Once you get that together try using upper extensions.

Again since these chords are stacked on top of each other it makes it a lot easier to imply these ideas as you move one string to the next. If you are rooting off of the 6th string, the next chord is a diatonic 4th on the 5th string. The same applies if voicing off of the 5th 4th or 4th 3rd string.

Hope this helped...

[ten left thumbs]

Thanks thumbs, but I don't want 9's and I do want roots.

Roots but no 9's, so presumably we're not talking jazz here?

I think my most appropriate emoticon is:



You want the root, stick it in the left hand, play chords in the right, forget voice leading for root.

[jster]

I was happy to let the thread die. lol. But since it keeps going:

@ brownhornet: I asked whether the root goes up then down then up then down... Nobody answered that. When I voice lead my arpeggios, sometimes I go up down up down up down with the root. Other times I go up up down down up up... Yet other times I go up down down up up down up up up. I asked about piano players because they have complete freedom and there is effectively no difference between chords and arpeggios for them. Still, nobody has answered this question about up and down or up up and down down or up up up down down down or hell up up up up up up up. Those are all possible answers for root motion with cycles on the piano. Of course the 3 and the 7 have all the great features you describe. That was never an issue. I was just curious how cycles are taught to piano players. I should have just asked for an answer on a stave.

@ ten thumbs: I'm not talking about jazz. I'm just talking about voice leading a cycle progression. Now I am glad that fep and you have brought up the 9 because I did not know that. But 9's simply do not serve my purpose.

The whole purpose of the thread was just to find out the tightest/densest/least movement kind of way of doing a cycle of 4 note arpeggios. But you see if the bass goes up up up up up up up that is actually the least bass movement. A 4th up is closer than a 5th down. But they probably have the bass go up down up down up down up down, like they have guitar players do cycles with chords. So then is that voice leading anymore? Seems to be micro voice leading and then macro voice leading. Anyway, I could generate more questions, but since I don't really have an answer to my original question, I'll refrain.

But thanks for input everybody. Really no biggie. We can euthanize the thread. RIP cycle thread.

[brwnhornet59]

jster...Are you asking where the root of each chord goes when making the changes and nothing else? If so, then my answer that you are descending in stacked 4ths, said it. When playing CM7 FM7 the C root moves up a fourth to F. When you play B-7b5 E-7, the root B goes down a diatonic 5th, the root for E goes up a 4th, etc...


8x998x

x8,10,9,10x

7x776x

x7979x

[jster]

jster...Are you asking where the root of each chord goes when making the changes and nothing else? If so, then my answer that you are descending in stacked 4ths, said it. When playing CM7 FM7 the C root moves up a fourth to F. When you play B-7b5 E-7, the root B goes down a diatonic 5th, the root for E goes up a 4th, etc...


8x998x

x8,10,9,10x

7x776x

x7979x

Great. OK, we can start there. What exactly justifies going down to the B? After all, going up a 4th to a B is closer. If we had a 15 string guitar (or a piano), wouldn't it make more sense, strictly speaking from a voice leading point of view, to go up to the B? Instead, as you indicate, we go up down up down up down with the bass. (And I imagine the piano players do too.) But why? Is it voice leading? Or is it something different from voice leading, namely, that we don't want to go moving up through the octaves?