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Originally Posted by A. Kingstone
Nice! Again, it seems to work out even without knowing exactly what extensions and chord qualities you are using. Allthough I haven't yet had a chance to listen to these and play them othe neck, I now know there's a little path, a branch, so to speak, of sounds and tensions that I can use to weave through a ii/V/I.
I need to find a way to work this into my daily practice, along with all the other concepts I'm working on. It gets hard when you're working all these concepts on the fretboard to keep all the balls in the air!
Thanks!
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05-18-2012 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by nosoyninja
That's it exactly! We're not thinking of individual static chords but the scales that they come from. Far less to think about.
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Alan,
Thinking from the perspective of harmony as movements as opposed to static structures has me wondering how to approach teaching.
Most guitarists learn initially through chord forms, myself included and gradually integrate motion using various methods.
Are static structures an unnecessary step? Would it be better to teach them as a member of a family of moving scale derived
harmonies from the beginning?
Thanks,
Bako
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Originally Posted by bako
My first class with my jazz guitar teacher, he said: "ok, this is drop 2 on paper. Next class you come in, show me all inversions on the fretboard for maj7, min7, maj 6, min6, dom7, dom7b5, min7b5, diminished 7, aug 7, and every other 4 note chord on every possible string set.(the list contained a total of about 13 different chord types).
I answered: "well, see you in a year!" ha ha. Anyway, I sure did a lot of sweating and tounge biting that week in the woodshed. I managed to work most of them out and brought them in the next week for class. As I was settling in to show him my work, he sat back, smirked and said, "forget it, you don't really need to know all that, look..." And then he showed me the major 6th diminished scale and minor 6th diminished scale built from drop 2 voicings. It is the biggest AHA moment I have ever had on the guitar!
I don't have a specific point with all that. But I will say that if I hadn't at least tried to work out ALL the voicings for ALL the chord types, the shortcut my teacher showed me wouldn't have made any sense at all. So yeah, work out all the drop 2 voicings at least once. For further study I recommend the Randy Vincent book, "jazz voicings, vol. 1" and "the barry harris method for guitar" by alan kingstone.
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Originally Posted by bako
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This thread is great. Alan, thanks so much for posting here, and to all the other contributions as well.
Today I took the Gm6/dim scale:
G-A-Bb-C-D-D#(Eb)-E-F#(Gb)-G
And played the following voicings alternating between Gm6 and A/C/Eb/Gbdim7 chords:
G-E-Bb-D=3-X-2-3-3-X
A-F#-C-Eb=5-X-4-5-4-X
Bb-G-D-E=6-X-5-7-5-X
C-A-Eb-Gb=8-X-7-8-7-X
D-Bb-E-G=X-5-X-3-5-3
Eb-C-Gb-A=X-6-X-5-7-5
E-D-G-Bb=X-7-X-7-8-6
Gb-Eb-A-C=X-9-X-8-10-8
G-E-Bb-D=X-10-X-9-11-10
Then I borrowed the top voice from the whatever following chord is, and came up with this:
G-E-Bb-Eb=3-X-2-3-4-X C7#9/G (No root)
A-F#-C-E=5-X-4-5-5-X Am6/F#m7b5/D9(NR)/Ab7(#5,b9)(NR)
Bb-G-D-F#=6-X-5-7-7-X Gm(Maj7)
C-A-Eb-G=8-X-7-8-8-X Cm6/A#m7b5/F9(NR)/B7(#5,b9)(NR)
D-Bb-E-A=X-5-X-3-5-5 BbMaj7(b5)/C13(NR)
Eb-C-Gb-Bb=X-6-X-5-7-6 Ebm6/C7b5/Ab9(NR)/D7(#5,b9)(NR)
E-D-G-C=X-7-X-7-8-8 Em7(#5)/C(add9)/Am11(NR)
Gb-Eb-A-D=X-9-X-8-10-10 B7#9/F#(NR)
G-E-Bb-Eb=X-10-X-9-11-11 C7#9/G(NR)
I play through the Gm6/dim7 inversions when I practice, playing with a rhythmic feel and trying to make a vamp/tune out of them, and I then I did the same thing with the abstracted/"borrowed note" version. It's interesting to me how in the borrowed note chords, the first 3 dim7 chords become m6 chords, a minor 3rd apart and can lead into their own scales.
I'm wondering ways I might employ this, or if I even did it correctly for that matter.
Certainly sounds funky and hip.Last edited by paynow; 05-21-2012 at 03:32 PM.
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Originally Posted by paynow
paynow. Hip indeed. Minor Sixth Diminished, Drop Three Borrowing the Soprano from Above.
Try thinking of this as F#7alt.
Precede with C#m7
Play 2 or 3 (more if you can make it fit) of your voicings descending (for instance) to your first voicing and resolve to B.
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Originally Posted by A. Kingstone
Thanks for getting me thinking outside the box. Many times, if I don't see a third in a chord I won't think of the dom7, alt or otherwis,e and I need to get away from that kind of thinking. When I really sat down to analyze it I had the "AHA" moment described here.
Really awesome Alan. Thanks again!
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Originally Posted by paynow
I bought Roni's DVD last week (and Alan's book is on the way) after reading this thread. I worked with it a lot over the weekend and all I can say is wow!!! It seems to be filling some huge gaps in my understanding/application of Harmony. The DVD cover says "20 Eye Opening lessons on Jazz Guitar Harmony that will change your playing forever" Pretty bold statement but I'm a true believer now.
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Originally Posted by djangoles
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Once again taking the Gm6/dim scale and borrowing the bass note from the preceding chord, I get the following:
F#-E-A#-D=2-X-2-3-3-X
G-F#-C-D#=3-X-4-5-4-X
A-G-D-E=5-X-5-7-5-X
Bb-A-Eb-F#-6-X-7-8-7-X
C-Bb-E-G=8-X-8-9-8-X
D-C-F#-A=X-5-X-5-7-5
Eb-D-G-Bb=X-6-X-7-8-6
E-D#-A-C=X-7-X-8-10-8
F#-E-A#-D=X-9-X-9-11-10
What's interesting to me is that on either side, top and bottom, you get an F#7(#5) chord, and in-between you get some very specific chords: a C7, D7, EbMaj7, etc., that perhaps you would not associate as resolving to a B chord, but in the context of looking at this as F#7alt it works, because all of the notes in those chords are altered extensions of the F#7. D#/Eb isn't, it's the 13, but not really an issue. I was working on resolving these to Bm7 chords, as Alan suggested, approaching from a C#m7 and leading in with several of the voicings.
Really nice.
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Im really digging this thread, I've been working through the concepts for the last few hours. I have one question regarding the "tonic" diminished chords.
Like Cdim7 resolving to Cmaj7 and Ebdim7 resolving to Dm7.
Wondering how this concept relates to these common progressions. They came up earlier in examples but I wasn't able to follow how they where realted. Are they from the major bebob/dim scale from the 5th of the key?
Makes sense kind of but maybe someone could clarify a bit more. Thanks.
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This approach is really deep!!! Yet easy to understand and execute.....i can feel the cobwebs in my brain slowly melting away from years of knowing all the chords/alt/subs...etc, but not really getting how to connect harmony fluidly.
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Originally Posted by timscarey
Barry says "The flat three diminished goes to the one and to the two"
The Flat Three Dim is the same chord as the One Dim.
Play a C6 any voicing (top 4 strings A E G C is a good start)
Move the E & G to Eb & Gb and you have Co (bIIIo)
Move those two notes again to D & F and you've got F6 (inv of Dm7 = IIm7)
Move back up to Ebo and C6.
Try it as an intro. Use it instead of the cycle.
Make it rhythmic.
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Originally Posted by A. Kingstone
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Originally Posted by paynow
BINGO!
Check out most pianists from the 30's 40's and you'll here it a lot.
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So I've been working through the Roni's DVD and Alan's book pretty heavily for the past couple weeks, and I'm now finally starting to really see and apply the concept in real time. It was a little slow in the beginning due to the fact I didn't have all drop 2 & 3 inversions of Maj6 and Min6 in every key under my fingers...lol!!!
But anyway I have a question for anyone including Alan if he is still following this.....
G7b9#5 = (Abmin6)...If you want to generate some movement to connect the inversions of Abmin6 do you use the diminished that would relate to Abmin6 (G, Bb, Db, E,)??? I think I know the answer, but just wanted to see if I'm missing something.
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Originally Posted by djangoles
Yes! Its the same diminished as the 'two' chord ie:
Dm7 = F6 - it's diminished = Eo
Have a look at the chapter 'Playing With Your Sisters And Brothers' starting on page 39. There are 2 suggested rhythms that will get you started.
Glad to hear your having success.
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Originally Posted by A. Kingstone
Great, thanks....I actually was reading that page on the train this morning
and I was like "duh!!!....there is the answer".
Thanks so much for the book....It's funny because right before I stumbled
onto this thread, I had been playing around with taking every note in a
set key (including outside ones) into tritone/dim/dom7 type of ideas and
could see there was some big stuff in there, I was just missing Maj6/Min6
inversion reference point. Anyway I'll be in the shed with this all summer
for sure.
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Being a constant devil's advocate, I need to ask: what advantage does this give a player who already knows all of his drop-2s and drop-3s (in all inversions, on all string sets)? It seems to me that relating everything back to a maj6 or min6 shape is no more helpful than how I already relate everything back to known drop-2 and drop-3 shapes.
BTW, I did read the book on the plane a couple of weeks ago, and this is what popped into my mind. Just seems like re-learning things I already know. I'm not bad-mouthing the method, and I can see the utility for players who do not have the chord knowledge I already do, but for me personally at this point of my journey, I think I should spend my time on other things.
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Alan, I want to thank you for your kindness to come on here and offer tips. Your book is next on my list to go along with the Roni Ben-Hur DVD. I'm with Djangoles on this; great combination.
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Originally Posted by FatJeff
One thing that I've noticed from working with this material is that it kind of forces me to think enharmonically in real time. Which is a little different than being able to do it after the fact...
As for the maj6/min6 question I think this explains it much better than I could..
Barry's approach to the teaching of jazz uses methods and techniques that pre-date the Berklee school and the Lydian Chromatic approach of George Russell. He relies upon the 6th chord and the 8-note, rather than the 7-note jazz scale, as a basis for melody and harmony. This is the material used by Bud Powell, Joseph Schillinger, George Gershwin, Glenn Miller, and even Frédéric Chopin. He emphasizes the concept of building a repertoire of one's own musical movements over common harmonic formulae.
Barry Harris’ approach to jazz harmony relies heavily on the diminished chord and its relationship to the twelve keys. Utilizing the diminished chord, he has formulated scales which allow pianists and guitar players greater freedom in accompaniment, to play, in his own words “movement, not chords.”
His fundamental scale is the major “sixth-diminished” scale, but equally important are the minor sixth to diminished, the dominant seventh to diminished, and the dominant seven flat five to diminished scale. The major sixth-diminished scale is a major scale with an extra note between the 5th and 6th scale degrees. A typical exercise using this scale involves playing a C Major 6th chord, up the scale to a D diminished 7th chord, back to C Major 6th in first inversion, to F diminished 7th ( i.e. D diminished 7th first inversion ), to C Major 6th in second inversion, and so on, up the scale until it reaches the octave. Moving chords up and down the scale in this way gives more possibilities for “movement”, as opposed to playing a static chord when playing jazz standard songs. Extending this concept, Barry relates all chord alterations (flat and sharp 9’s, sharp 11’s, flat 13’s, etc.) to the tritones minor sixth-diminished scale (A Flat Minor Sixth-Diminished for G7), which provides options for “moving” the alterations through the scales.Last edited by djangoles; 06-08-2012 at 11:14 AM.
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Thanks, Djangoles, for the description on the dom7 alterations. I hadn't thought of that.
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Is it worth learning chord scales derived from the other octatonic (bebop) scales?
1 b2 2 3 4 5 6 7 ... c d f a ... c# e g b ... Dm7 (F6)..... ......................... - A9 rootless (C# Half Dim/E min6 )
1 2 b3 3 4 5 6 7 ... c d# f a ... d e g b ... F7........ ....... .............. ......... - Em7 (G6)
1 2 3 4 b5 5 6 7 ... c e f# a ... d f g b ... D9 rootless ( F# HalfDim/Amin6) .... - G7
1 2 3 4 5 b6 6 7 . .. c e g a ... d f g# b ... C6 (Am7) ......... ..................... - Bdim7 ( G7b9 rootless )
1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 7 ... c e g Bb ... d f a b ... C7 ........................ ............. - G9 rootless (B half Dim / Dmin6)Last edited by princeplanet; 06-10-2012 at 02:22 AM.
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Wow! Interesting idea.
Example 4 is C6o - CEGA DFAbB
My brain hurts thinking about the other ones. Let me have some coffee to see if that helps.
Enharmonics
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