memorizing or understanding

[2bornot2bop]

In all fairness, no one I've ever seen has learned jazz from a book


I think of everything as supplemental to listening and learning tunes...If you sat down with a basic understanding of major scale harmony, fleshed out the chords for say, five standards, learned the chords for those tunes in at least three areas on the neck, learned arpeggios for those chords, listened to 5 versions each of those tunes and transcribed one player's melody and one player's solo, you'd know more about jazz than any beginner jazz book teaches...

Sorry, I'm grumpy today...

Now there's a beginner's method I'm jazzed about. Personally, I'm more inspired to practice while making actual music. My biggest obstacle to date is comfortably playing a tune through making chord transitions in time. An obstacle to doing that of course is having to place each finger on its string even though I'm familiar with the shape (grip) of the chord. I try to visualize it before I move to the next chord but I'm not there yet. But hey that's why they call it practice.

3 tunes I've chosen to work on as a beginner are:

I'm accustomed to her face - a Wes transcription of the actual 60's recording
The Shadow of your smile - a TG student chord melody with embellishments
How Insentive - a Rich Severson chord melody which is kool because RS provides a pdf, a backing track, and a step by step 6 minute video, all for $5.

Each of these tunes has chord extensions embedded into their chord melodies which inspires me to learn them because completed they sound good.

One tune I desire to learn more than any other is Jobim's WAVE, but I've yet to locate a single guitar chord melody for it.

[mr. beaumont]

Just a note about learning those chord melodies:

Don't fall in love with the arrangement...make sure you know the tune as chords and melody seperately as well...

[monk]

In his original Guitar Method as well as his mammoth three volume Harmonic Mechanisms for Guitar, George Van Eps emphasizes triads.

For the people who don't get it or who question the validity of triads, I suggest listening to recordings of Van Eps. Not just the solo recordings from the 60s and later but those from the 30s, 40s, and 50s where GVE was in the rhythm section and stepped up for a solo, particularly with a pick. Once you understand and can really hear what he was doing, you'll understand why Ron Eschete, Bucky Pizzarelli, Howard Roberts, Ben Monder and Kurt Rosenwinkel, to name a few, hold him in such high regard. You'll also learn why triads can be important.

[matt.guitarteacher]

In his original Guitar Method as well as his mammoth three volume Harmonic Mechanisms for Guitar, George Van Eps emphasizes triads.

For the people who don't get it or who question the validity of triads, I suggest listening to recordings of Van Eps. Not just the solo recordings from the 60s and later but those from the 30s, 40s, and 50s where GVE was in the rhythm section and stepped up for a solo, particularly with a pick. Once you understand and can really hear what he was doing, you'll understand why Ron Eschete, Bucky Pizzarelli, Howard Roberts, Ben Monder and Kurt Rosenwinkel, to name a few, hold him in such high regard. You'll also learn why triads can be important.

Absolutely.

But with regard to the book discussed in this thread, I think the main question is whether learning four types of triads in all inversions, on all string sets is the first priority for beginning students. Fisher has beginning jazz students work on pages and pages of all of these before learning a single 7th chord.

There's also not really a lot of application of using triads to play over jazz changes. It's just kind of a "triads are more fundamental than 7th chords. Let's start there". He immediately moves on to 7th chords and, from the best of what I can remember, never really touches back on triads. That may make sense in theory class, but not in learning to actually play. In my opinion, it is a fundamental problem in this book. It's frustrating and leaves a beginner wondering why they should be learning it.

They might think that maybe jazz just "isn't for them". There's too much work involved to even learn to play something basic. Personally, I want players who've never played jazz to know that it doesn't have to be that complicated just to play something.

After the first real lesson in Mickey Baker, you're playing something that sounds basically like jazz. Working through Fisher's book sequentially, that's weeks away.

[monk]

Matt,
While I will respectfully disagree with you on the importance of triads, I think you've hit the bullseye in your assessment of the structure of the book in question. The most important factor is getting a student playing music as quickly as possible. Not in months or weeks but ASAP.

As you've aptly pointed out, Mickey Baker has the student sounding "jazzy" right out of the gate. That's a crucial factor and one that can make a difference as to whether a student learns to play or gives up.

Additionally, most three note Freddy Green type chords and Mickey Baker's four note chords are no harder physically for a beginner to learn than "cowboy chords and usually easier than some barre chords.

[brwnhornet59]

They might think that maybe jazz just "isn't for them". There's too much work involved to even learn to play something basic. Personally, I want players who've never played jazz to know that it doesn't have to be that complicated just to play something.

There is truth in this statement, but without trying to sound snarky, I think students that are trying to learn jazz but do not know the basics in the first place (I learned triads (maj min dim) and their inversions as well as 7th and M7 the first few years I started playing prog rock, on my own) of rock or blues are in for a world of grief. This is not to say that a mind numbing cramming is in order, but it does mean that the overall A B C's of the language of music really must be addressed before one can seriously try and grasp what is going on. Otherwise they are just learning a few more chord shapes that they do not understand and will still be clueless. But yes, students learning tunes and having fun right away is key to keeping them interested and curious IMHO.

[matt.guitarteacher]

For the record, I've never said that there isn't any benifit to learning triads or that one shouldn't understand the fundamental theory behind chord construction. I merely think that it's a question of what things are the priority in learning to play at different levels of experience.

I don't think that a beginner with little or no exposure to jazz harmony should work on triads across string sets before learning a couple of major 7 chords, dominant chords etc. Also, the way real players actually use triads to play over changes is a more advanced skill than playing simple 7th chords.

You're talking about using triads to imply extensions or substitutions over basic harmony? So, you're going to outline a maj9 chord using triads before actually learning to play a maj9 chord (or maj7 for that matter)? That's more complexity. Besides which, this is not really the way that Fisher uses triads in the books.

To be fair, I still think I'm one of the only people that's really looked at this book much besides the beginners who pop up on the boards wondering "what's wrong with them" because they're frustrated with their progress. I have yet to hear of anyone (teacher or student) who has used book 1 sequentially and had sucess with it.

The same can't be said for other books in this "beginner method" category. Many players may have frustration with different beginner books and many will rightly point out that there's no such thing as "learning it all from a book." But for the other methods there are personal testimonials for players who learned a lot from working sequentially through books such as Leavitt's Modern Method or Mickey Baker.

Where are the testimonials for this book? Could I really criticize Mickey Baker or Leavitt as being bad starts for beginners without screams of protest from members who actually learned from these books?

[2bornot2bop]

When I first began piano I learned ii-V-I changes played in all 12 keys first without and then with extensions. There's enough there to keep anyone busy adding rhythm, or inversions, tritone substition, whilst still making it hip enough to sound like real jazz. Plop on an Abersold ii-V-I backing track that covers all 12 keys and next thing you know you're jammin' away with real players.

What's interesting about that is doing so you're already tackling all of the above , while at the same time committing the cycle to memory, and at the same time gaining facility of commonly played changes one will encounter in many, many jazz standards in the future. By the time I mastered the above on piano, I knew the keyboard, could play chord shapes in my head and hands without needing to look at the keyboard, and playing a lead sheet for the first time was almost a breeze.

So my question is, what's wrong with approaching beginning guitar in a similar approach to above? Reason I ask is, would one rather become a master of all inversions of triads, with the resulting chordal sounds, or full and hipper chords in about the same amount of time and effort?

[elixzer]

well im with the jody fisher method volume 1, for beginners
im learning first and 2 inversions triads of major dim, aug and minor chords

there are too many chords, dependings on the strings, so my question is
do i have to memorize them?

i know the chords formulas so i can construcct them and know the inversion theory, but it tooks too long that i apply the formula on the fretboard

when you play chords you are aware of each note you are playing and their positions??? or you just memorized them??
i guess a professional should be aware of what he is playing instead of memorizing, but recognize the notes in 2,34 and 5 string is hard to me
any tip?¿

First off know where the notes are on fretboard. This is the video that really helped me with this:

Then you will be able to know where the note is on each set of strings. There it is on first string, and that gives a shape, and that major can transform into minor, diminished, and augmented. Then you find the note on second string, and find shape, etc, then in its root position, etc. Then you find that its IV and V can also be found wherever the key note is. And so on. Soon you get familiar with the shapes. And by the way be aware of the NUMBERS, what the 1, 3, and 5 are doing as you transform the chords into different voicings

When your away from guitar, and going to sleep, imagine yourself finding those notes and shapes, and this will also help you.


This is what clicked for me concerning Triads. ...First be aware of the ROOT/KEY note then the SHAPE of the triad. So say on 123, 234, 345, 456 stringsets.

[matt.guitarteacher]

So my question is, what's wrong with approaching beginning guitar in a similar approach to above? Reason I ask is, would one rather become a master of all inversions of triads, with the resulting chordal sounds, or full and hipper chords in about the same amount of time and effort?

I don't see that there's anything wrong with it. This book doesn't really approach it from that angle. It arbitrarily works triads in every position, and then kind of "starts over" with larger chord shapes. There's not an attempt to really build onto the triad shapes in a real conscious way.

It's "here are four unrelated 7th chord forms.... 4 maj 7ths" etc....

I'm not knocking the importance of triads in anyway. I just feel that anything that is practiced arbitrarily (especially in jazz) and without understanding of how it would be applied in real playing situations is a waste of time. This is especially true for beginners who are hazy on the why's of learning all of this new material.

[wolflen]

my approach to new "jazz" students is teaching triads(maj min dim aug) on string sets in all keys..along with some basic standards (green dolphin st seems to work well)..then show how use triads in arpeggio , runs and scale-placement breakdown..to apply to the song..

also showing the relation of the I IV & V chords-how (finger close) they are to each other in each inversion..on all string sets in all keys..

then just add that one note to make them 7th chords...of course this changes everything..because of the richness of the 7th chords..so the study of diatonic harmony becomes a must at this point..

yes this is a long term study..but for me..without the basic knowledge of the fretboard (knowing all the notes and how to produce basic triads in any position/inversion and knowing the basic I IV V relation in each position..to sidestep this process and jump to 7th chord structures..is missing the foundation of the chord and its uses..

listen to some of the players on early steely dan material..thoses "complex" sounding chords..mostly are triads with added 9 or 11 tones..and the solos sound very jazzy playing over simple triad harmonic movement..(reeling in the years, any major dude)

the solo and harmonic work of larry carlton (check his vids on you tube) shows many examples of using triads in a "jazz" setting..

also the study of 12 bar blues..in its many forms and harmonic devices..is almost a mandatory study in jazz..and has very strong reliance on the use of triads and their harmonic movement..

play well

[brwnhornet59]

use triads in arpeggio , runs and scale-placement breakdown..to apply to the song..

also showing the relation of the I IV & V chords-how (finger close) they are to each other in each inversion

then just add that one note to make them 7th chords...

yes this is a long term study..but for me..without the basic knowledge of the fretboard (knowing all the notes and how to produce basic triads in any position/inversion and knowing the basic I IV V relation in each position..to sidestep this process and jump to 7th chord structures..is missing the foundation of the chord and its uses..

also the study of 12 bar blues..in its many forms and harmonic devices..is almost a mandatory study in jazz..and has very strong reliance on the use of triads and their harmonic movement..

Agreed. What are 7th chords but a triad with an extra note? What are rootless superimposed/substituted chords, but the shapes and inversions created with these 3-4 note chords. Why would this not be stressed?

It is a must to understand the building blocks before more sophisticated ideas are introduced IMHO. Sure let them play a few advanced shapes to hold their interest, but to launch into a full regime of harmonized scales is pointless if they do not see how the little pieces are part of the whole...There are no shortcuts...