The Shadow of Your Smile

**elixzer** · 04-25-2012, 12:27 PM

Now I err know some of you here have long memories. I wonder if you remember me asking about the song and tune I love The Shadow of your Smile last phase I was at the forums?

At that time I had been trying to work it out just be finding notes.

This time I am last learning a Jazz song for the FIRST TIME!!!

Here it is: The Shadow Of Your Smile

Now I am getting the feel of it. But I need to know a good way to go about the learning of it so I understand what I am doing rather than just copying chords kind of thing

I have also complimented this with learning shell voicings for m7s maj7s and 7s, but eg, take this chord in the progression, Em6. WOW I had a little look for Em6 and was astounded to see how many variations of this chord they are! ( I am assuming same goes for other chords of this nature?)

but this is my question. In learning triads, I had a breakthrough finding out where the ROOTS of the key notes were on each string and THEN the shapes

So what about this excercise. For example one variation of Em6 I like is on 3rd fret--not sure of presenting tabs but it goes finger on 6th string of third string, then finger on 5th of fourth fret, and finger on forth of fifth fret. I like it there because I at the moment amd doing most of the chords there. BUT I notice that the bottom note of Em6 is not E, but G, and so I am wondering if learning it this way is gonna be a hindrance? Should i for NOW look for Em6 with the root E? as well as other chords I am choosing to learn this song? What do you think?

**mr. beaumont** · 04-25-2012, 01:19 PM

You want as many places to play each chord as you can under your belt...

One of your goals in comping the chords of a tune should be to do it without flying all over the neck...another goal should be to create smooth voice leading or keep common voices between chords.

The end goal should be to be able to play any chord anywhere with any note on top in the melody. The only way to do this is to have the fretboard down cold and learn how to build chords...if you just try to memorize a bunch of shapes, you'll never get there...

I reccomend breaking things down...major, minor, dominant...Once you know how to build chords, you'll quickly be able to figure out that all an Em6 is is a Em triad plus a C#. Eventually, you'll also be able to make decisions about how many notes you really need to get the point of a chord across (for example, a 13th chord can have seven notes in it...but you're not going to do that on the guitar!)

**elixzer** · 04-25-2012, 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

You want as many places to play each chord as you can under your belt...

OK, I dig that.

One of your goals in comping the chords of a tune should be to do it without flying all over the neck...

So for example, in doing this song it is good to try find all the chords in first 5 frets?

another goal should be to create smooth voice leading or keep common voices between chords.

Well I am using my ear to see what feels right to me.

The end goal should be to be able to play any chord anywhere with any note on top in the melody. The only way to do this is to have the fretboard down cold and learn how to build chords...if you just try to memorize a bunch of shapes, you'll never get there...

OK, well if you remember in OP, how I said I had had a breakthrough with understanding triads, in that I have been understanding the roots and inversions of the triads on eg 123, 345, 456 strings--I am of course still exploring all of this. And also know how to change the triads into minor, diminished, augmented
When I find a shape, like Dm7, I am now trying to find out how the chord comes to be, where root, 3d, 7th is etc too

I reccomend breaking things down...major, minor, dominant...Once you know how to build chords, you'll quickly be able to figure out that all an Em6 is is a Em triad plus a C#. Eventually, you'll also be able to make decisions about how many notes you really need to get the point of a chord across (for example, a 13th chord can have seven notes in it...but you're not going to do that on the guitar!)

Are they called 'colours'? I LOVE the terms used. if anything in this phase it has really even more dawned on me the feel of Jazz chords, the ever so subtle changes, and dramatic. They really move me. for example when I do a run of say D7, Dm7, and go down the neck alternating these shapes I feel these subtle changes in my gut. very powerful.

BUT...I don't think you've answered my question

which was --do you think it wise to at this stage look for these chords with the root at the bottom of the chord? For example, I am guessing the Em6 I described to you is an inversion? because the E is not at the bottom, G is---its b3rd

**mr. beaumont** · 04-25-2012, 01:53 PM

Sorry, yeah, I wasn't specific enough--I definitely meant to include that in the concept of learning chords all over the neck...

But actually, for starting out, it's not a bad idea to start looking at "root on the bottom" chords on different string sets...that will actually get you pretty far, particularly when playing by yourself...then once those feel natural, you can start going into the inversions.

I learned this in kind of a weird way...because I dove headfirst into chord melody and solo arrangements, I was sort of forced to learn inversions in order to get the chords I needed with the melody note I needed on top...I never went about it systematically...I know a lot of folks do, so hopefully they'll chime in as to what worked for them...

And yeah, colors...I like that too. To the point of where a cowboy chord strummed just sounds kinda pedestrian to me...I have to remind myself of context!

I would definite say if you're taking the time to listen to a Dm vs. a Dm7 etc. then you're on the right track. That stuff will get ingrained...

**elixzer** · 04-25-2012, 05:57 PM

hmmmm just been listening to the first podcast, and it seems a little advanced. IF I cant see it it is anyhow lol
Also I prefer the chord progression I found where it begins on that 'dark' amazing F#m7 second fret. But I am still listening to him and taking from it what I can

Now this is another question. I LOVE singing, and I intend to sing when I play. when I can. Is it usual ---and this sounds a weird question but I have to ask--is it usual that players who sing emphasize runs..??

I already LOVE harmony, or more that one string vibrating, more that one-at-at-time notes anyhow, but I also would of course like the skill to do that, but not at the expence of effort to really get into harmonic movement. Do you dig what I am asking? I am not sure I do lol

I DO remember seeing a video I have saved somewhere where the gutiarist kind of uses fingers to add movement to the chords he is doing. But of course I am first needing to LEARN triads and more shell chords etc first

**FatJeff** · 04-25-2012, 06:48 PM

Singing while you play is a great thing to do. I admit that I wish I did it more. It's a habit I should get into.

**elixzer** · 04-25-2012, 07:18 PM

Originally Posted by FatJeff

Singing while you play is a great thing to do. I admit that I wish I did it more. It's a habit I should get into.

haha good to inspire you

what about my question...?

**brwnhornet59** · 04-26-2012, 09:37 AM

Great advice from these guys. I can't stress enough the importance to understand how chords are built and how to find their extensions (colors)......

Something that was not mentioned here was when learning break downs of triads, Major, minor, dim...or when adding the next logical extension the 7th, giving you M7, Dom 7, min7, half dim (-7b5) or full dim (-bb7b5), try keeping all of these voices rooted in one key. So do C, C-, Cdim triads, then CM7, C7, C-7, C-7b5, C dim (C-bb7b5). If you do this you will be cycling through different keys while staying on one root. You should do this the same way with both inversions of the triad and all three inversions of the 7th chords. When you get it all down in one key do the same thing with another key. You could use the circle of fifths to use as your guide choosing the next key. Go for either G or F etc... This will give you a very powerful insight into what is going on as well as letting you play these shapes all over the neck, opening many new doors for you..

Good luck..

**elixzer** · 04-26-2012, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by brwnhornet59

Great advice from these guys. I can't stress enough the importance to understand how chords are built and how to find their extensions (colors)......

I was actually practicing the song, and just taking a break find your message. I am VERY wanting to learn that. I am trying to understand how each chord I am gripping is constructed and how to find the formula, and how it changes into into etc. because this is what I am also trying to do with the triads. I will find their roots and inversions on each of the three strings, and also see how they can be changes into major, minor, diminished and augmented.
Obviously going onto these jazz chords seems more complex for me, but having the grounding in beginning to understand triads is helping a bit.
What I have just been doing in last practice session, is talking advice from Mr Beaumont, to try and keep the changes simple in one place. So whereas before I was going saw from first and second fret for the Em and F#m7, and then going to fith fret for the Am9, Am7, Dm7. I am finding out I can find these voicings where I begin the tune. it may even only involve one note and open strings!! which i love lol .

Something that was not mentioned here was when learning break downs of triads, Major, minor, dim...or when adding the next logical extension the 7th, giving you M7, Dom 7, min7, half dim (-7b5) or full dim (-bb7b5), try keeping all of these voices rooted in one key. So do C, C-, Cdim triads, then CM7, C7, C-7, C-7b5, C dim (C-bb7b5). If you do this you will be cycling through different keys while staying on one root. You should do this the same way with both inversions of the triad and all three inversions of the 7th chords. When you get it all down in one key do the same thing with another key. You could use the circle of fifths to use as your guide choosing the next key. Go for either G or F etc... This will give you a very powerful insight into what is going on as well as letting you play these shapes all over the neck, opening many new doors for you..

Good luck..

I am trying to picture what you mean

...you say to focus on one key, C. well for example, I know where C is all over the neck...now (phewww) so I can say on three strings 123, 234, 345, 456 find the root of C on top, then middle, then bottoming string which are its inversions, and of course find its major, minor, dim, aug..And now your saying to--from there--find the 7s for those triads

what makes it complex for me is the fingering, etc

what was confusing me before with learning this song was, say when looking for the chords I am not familiar with to CHOOSE those with the key note at the base, rather than pick an inversion where the key note is not at the bottom which could confuse me?
So for example the current A9 I have chosen has open string A as its root. Why is it A9 --is this because when you count the csale from the root, and pass the 7 it becomes the 2nd note above the 8/1 and thus an octave and 9?

**mr. beaumont** · 04-26-2012, 10:38 AM

Yeah, that's essentially the formula for a 9 chord...but it (the 9) doesn't necessarily have to be voiced above the seventh.

So why is it not called a "2?"

"9" implied that every thing before the 9 is also fair game when creating the chord...a 9 chord is a dominant, meaning it will have a b7 if we're applying the formula to the major scale (so an A9 has a G in it, not a G#--a maj9 would have a "non flat" 7)

So a 9 chord can have a Root, 3rd, 5th, b7th, and 9th.

A "2" chord (often called a sus) Implies Root, 2nd, and fifth...no 3rd, no 7th...

**elixzer** · 04-26-2012, 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Yeah, that's essentially the formula for a 9 chord...but it (the 9) doesn't necessarily have to be voiced above the seventh.

So why is it not called a "2?"

"9" implied that every thing before the 9 is also fair game when creating the chord...a 9 chord is a dominant, meaning it will have a b7 if we're applying the formula to the major scale (so an A9 has a G in it, not a G#--a maj9 would have a "non flat" 7)

So a 9 chord can have a Root, 3rd, 5th, b7th, and 9th.

A "2" chord (often called a sus) Implies Root, 2nd, and fifth...no 3rd, no 7th...

I see. Often when I am experimenting playing triad chords up and down the neck, I will allow other strings (your 'not supposed' to) to play, and I LOVE the harmonies, and I have thought that say I was strumming a c-triad and a d string rings, I had been assuming it was a '2nd' when all along it could be a 9th?

**mr. beaumont** · 04-26-2012, 01:10 PM

Well, this is where the naming gets a little tricky...

There's "2" or "sus2" chords...and there's the interval of a "second," or one whole step. two things that are only slightly related...

Generally the idea of naming...if a third is present (so in the key of C, if there's an E in the chord too) it's some kind of "9" chord...it could be a maj9 (R 3 5 7 9) a 9 (a dominant chord, R 3 5 b7 9) or even a "add9" which is R 3 5 9-- no seventh.

Naming depends on context too...you can name a chord in a bubble, but that doesn't mean it will always be the chord's name...yuck...I know...it gets easier...

Back to the idea of "seconds" for a...uh...second...this specific distance of one whole step (two frets) or a "minor second" (a half step, or one fret) sounds great when you can put it into a chord...check this out (further complicating the matter, I'm going to put a "minor second" interval into a "major 7th" chord...my intent is not to confuse, just to illustrate the difference)

Anyway, here's a good old Cmaj7: x 3 5 4 5 x (C, G, B, E)

But here's a Cmaj7 as well: x x 2 4 1 3 (E, B, C, G)

See how cool that chord sounds? Same notes, different order, and the C and B are in the same octave...so you have a minor second interval there...the two notes are only a half step apart)

There's just one of the many reasons why inversions are cool

**elixzer** · 04-26-2012, 02:05 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Well, this is where the naming gets a little tricky...

There's "2" or "sus2" chords...and there's the interval of a "second," or one whole step. two things that are only slightly related...

Generally the idea of naming...if a third is present (so in the key of C, if there's an E in the chord too) it's some kind of "9" chord...it could be a maj9 (R 3 5 7 9) a 9 (a dominant chord, R 3 5 b7 9) or even a "add9" which is R 3 5 9-- no seventh.

Naming depends on context too...you can name a chord in a bubble, but that doesn't mean it will always be the chord's name...yuck...I know...it gets easier...

Yes, you mean musicis all about relationships, not isolated entities called chords?

Back to the idea of "seconds" for a...uh...second...this specific distance of one whole step (two frets) or a "minor second" (a half step, or one fret) sounds great when you can put it into a chord...check this out (further complicating the matter, I'm going to put a "minor second" interval into a "major 7th" chord...my intent is not to confuse, just to illustrate the difference)

Anyway, here's a good old Cmaj7: x 3 5 4 5 x (C, G, B, E)

But here's a Cmaj7 as well: x x 2 4 1 3 (E, B, C, G)

See how cool that chord sounds? Same notes, different order, and the C and B are in the same octave...so you have a minor second interval there...the two notes are only a half step apart)

There's just one of the many reasons why inversions are cool

Well, as for the 7th chords, I am still trying to understand them with the key note on the bottom, and haven't really explored thier inversions yet, but I have with the triads, so I am half way---ish there.

The breakthrough I have felt with this exploration of triads and their inversions all over the neck is exactly that liberation from "acrophobia", a term I found in the book The Advancing Guitarist, defined as ""fear of higher frets. This is something I have had for a long time, and have seen it with other learners, who forever will not stray far from the first 3 frets! Mick Goodrick encourages the playing of single notes up and down a single string, but I have found this liberation through the exploration of triadic harmony. I MUCH prefer harmony. And like you say, I too am utterly fascinated by the different voicings you can get for sequences of chords, and their inversions. I've had some ecstatic moments I can tell you

So goodness knows what awaits when I become more familiar with the 7th chords, and the added 9ths etc etc.

Wonder what you think of this statement:

Memorization is much easier once you start to recognize certain chord patterns that occur over and over again in jazz - you'll be able to memorize phrases and sentences instead of letters and words, if you will.

Just Jazz Guitar Online - Memorization, Chord Pattern Dictionary and Miles Davis' Solar

I'm not studying the page as such---not yet anyway--but I am just wondering where the understanding becomes under your fingers. Surely you not thinking 'thats a 2nd, thats a 9th, etc...?

So are you a chord-patterns-man? Does it happen spontaneous for you?

I know for my that when I am doing some kind of session with the triads, I am aware that minor patterns workd best for certain chords in a key like 2nd 3rd 6th, but often you try the shapes on other notes, as you do the diminished shapes etc

**elixzer** · 04-26-2012, 02:25 PM

I remember what I was going to ask but had forgot. I think it is REALLY important when learning stuff, and things are suggested to ask why, so that you understand the reasons

Now you said it is good to--when learning this song--to keep the changes close to each other, right. So whereas before I had been starting the song in first two frets I had been going to 5th fret for some chords and then back top first and second frets. But now I realize i can find the voicings where I begin the song (of course part of my thing now is fear of being confined to those frets LOL---feel me

)
but again, my QUESTION is why is it wise to keep the voicing changes close to each other for me when learning this song?

**mr. beaumont** · 04-26-2012, 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by elixzer

Surely you not thinking 'thats a 2nd, thats a 9th, etc...?

Actually, yes, while practicing...you can't think about that stuff on the fly, but if you consciously think about it enough while practicing, you start to see little relationships light up all over the fretboard when actually playing...

I made this video a while back...It talks about chord shapes, and finding other chords by moving particular notes around...these chords in this video are very basic...but after going through the process, you have quite a few chords under your belt...then you can start to think about other things while practicing...take any chord shape you know...where does the ninth, for example, "live" in relationship to the chord? Can I simply add a finger to the chord to get it? Do I have to take something away...

All the thinking that happens during practice eventually gets ingrained...you start not just to see the options, but hear them too...that's when things get really fun...

Reg recently wrote in a post about seeing a chord progression on paper and what it really says...it's a "harmonic area" if you will...Dm7 to G7 to Cmaj7 doesn't just mean those three chords...it's a Dminor area to a G dominant area to a C major area..you start to think about things like Dm7 to Dm9 to G13 to G7#5 to Cmaj9 as being part of that "area."

I'm getting ahead of myself...let me know what makes sense and what doesn't...

**mr. beaumont** · 04-26-2012, 02:32 PM

RE: Why is it important to keep voicings close together.

Voice leading and common voices...smooth transitions between chords:

Here, try this--a ii V I in Cmajor...

Dm7: 10 x 10 10 10 x

G13: 3 x 3 4 5 x

Cmaj7: 8 x 9 9 8 x

Then try this:

Dm7: x 5 3 5 6 x

G7: 3 x 3 4 3 x

Cmaj7: x 3 5 4 5 x

then try this:

Dm9: x 5 3 5 5 x

G7#5: 3 x 3 4 4 x

Cmaj9: x 3 2 4 3 x

If that last one sounds especially cool, that's the reason right there...

**brwnhornet59** · 04-26-2012, 05:03 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

RE: Why is it important to keep voicings close together.

Voice leading and common voices...smooth transitions between chords:

Here, try this--a ii V I in Cmajor...

Dm7: 10 x 10 10 10 x

G13: 3 x 3 4 5 x

Cmaj7: 8 x 9 9 8 x

Then try this:

Dm7: x 5 3 5 6 x

G7: 3 x 3 4 3 x

Cmaj7: x 3 5 4 5 x

then try this:

Dm9: x 5 3 5 5 x

G7#5: 3 x 3 4 4 x

Cmaj9: x 3 2 4 3 x

If that last one sounds especially cool, that's the reason right there...

I am glad you pointed this out Mr B.

When dealing with triads you will have three areas on the same string set to deal with. The first area can start at the lowest place you can find the triad on the neck with the root on the bottom. The next are will be the first inversion of that chord, the last being the second inversion. In each of these place you will start to learn that all of the chords you want to play are all closely seated to each position. This is the beauty of learning this stuff.

When you get to 4 note chords (7ths) you will have 4 areas of proximity to learn up the neck. After awhile you will see that all positions overlap each other through these forms, giving you even more choices..But one step at a time...All this on just one string set....

**elixzer** · 04-27-2012, 07:29 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Actually, yes, while practicing...you can't think about that stuff on the fly, but if you consciously think about it enough while practicing, you start to see little relationships light up all over the fretboard when actually playing...

I am really diggin the way you putting things

Yes that sounds very inspiring to know.

I made this video a while back...It talks about chord shapes, and finding other chords by moving particular notes around...these chords in this video are very basic...but after going through the process, you have quite a few chords under your belt...then you can start to think about other things while practicing...take any chord shape you know...where does the ninth, for example, "live" in relationship to the chord? Can I simply add a finger to the chord to get it? Do I have to take something away...

Where can I view this video? Is it free?
I am begining understanding the importance of seeing the transformations of the shapes. I have caught myself being unconscious of that and assuming they are 'different' chords, but that would be like saying different shapes a dancer makes are different people wouldn't it?

When I have been practicing triads, I have found that just a little pinky on an adjoining note adds so much to the colour of the movement, as well as taking a finger off a string. It can be very entrancing to experiment with this.

All the thinking that happens during practice eventually gets ingrained...you start not just to see the options, but hear them too...that's when things get really fun...

Explain more what you mean 'hear them too'?

Reg recently wrote in a post about seeing a chord progression on paper and what it really says...it's a "harmonic area" if you will...Dm7 to G7 to Cmaj7 doesn't just mean those three chords...it's a Dminor area to a G dominant area to a C major area..you start to think about things like Dm7 to Dm9 to G13 to G7#5 to Cmaj9 as being part of that "area."

I'm getting ahead of myself...let me know what makes sense and what doesn't...

Yes it very MUCH makes sense and you explain it beautifully, as does Reg.

The other day I was watching this video --a vlog--by this young guy who has had a very interesting life. His vlog was in response to me asking him if he played a musical instrument. He said he'd played guitar before he got sucked into a bad arsed cult which badly exploited him. He said that he had liked the Red Hot Chilli Peppers, and some other rock groups, and had finally got an electric guitar, and he said he would practice and play 6-8 hours everyday TILL, he said, he started not wanting to hear music!

I found that idea very sad, and this guy is into meditation (he teaches meditation classes in Argentina) and is real sensitive the way he talks and his manner, and it seems to me that his IDEAS of 'music' is what put him off music? That electric rock stuff which just does not HAVE the subtlety of what is being talked about here. Yes there are some badass licks, and riffs, but NOT ...

Although I appreciate electric music (and am aware many Jazz players choose that for their sound) and I love Hendrix and all that, but i SO much prefer unplugged because of the harmonic vibratory resonance I feel. Those subtle and dramatic changes of voicings and colour. I could never imagine becoming repulsed by this.

Often when I play a chord I experience I'm hearing actual voices--like a choir of voices lol. I had this from the beginning when I got this guitar.

**elixzer** · 04-27-2012, 07:44 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

RE: Why is it important to keep voicings close together.

Voice leading and common voices...smooth transitions between chords:

Here, try this--a ii V I in Cmajor...

Dm7: 10 x 10 10 10 x

G13: 3 x 3 4 5 x

Cmaj7: 8 x 9 9 8 x

Then try this:

Dm7: x 5 3 5 6 x

G7: 3 x 3 4 3 x

Cmaj7: x 3 5 4 5 x

then try this:

Dm9: x 5 3 5 5 x

G7#5: 3 x 3 4 4 x

Cmaj9: x 3 2 4 3 x

If that last one sounds especially cool, that's the reason right there...

Yes, the bottom transitions are really beautiful. I cant wait till I get these kinds of other chords also under my fingers--though also knowing that there is no final place and it is all about exploration

How comes though often when watching professional guitarists they seem to play all over the neck?

**fumblefingers** · 04-27-2012, 07:52 AM

Originally Posted by elixzer

Yes, the bottom transitions are really beautiful. I cant wait till I get these kinds of other chords also under my fingers--though also knowing that there is no final place and it is all about exploration

How comes though often when watching professional guitarists they seem to play all over the neck?

cuz when theys watching professional guitarists comes often all over their neck itches

**elixzer** · 04-27-2012, 07:55 AM

Originally Posted by brwnhornet59

I am glad you pointed this out Mr B.

When dealing with triads you will have three areas on the same string set to deal with. The first area can start at the lowest place you can find the triad on the neck with the root on the bottom. The next are will be the first inversion of that chord, the last being the second inversion. In each of these place you will start to learn that all of the chords you want to play are all closely seated to each position. This is the beauty of learning this stuff.

Yes! This was one of the breakthrough lessons I had. Not a personal guitar teacher but Justin Sandercoe explaining triads (he emphasized to know the root note, and then the shapes) on a Youtube video, and he picked C, F, and G triads on first top three strings and first showed us the inversions and had us doing riffs up and down the neck and then showed us we didn't HAVE to do that because the 1, 4, and 5 changes where each in close proximity in three places. So thats what you mean isn't it?
In another thread here, I got great advice to practice the whole of the C scale, including inversions, and then go onto the other keys, and this has opening up the whole neck for me too.

When you get to 4 note chords (7ths) you will have 4 areas of proximity to learn up the neck. After awhile you will see that all positions overlap each other through these forms, giving you even more choices..But one step at a time...All this on just one string set....

So you seem to say that for triads there are "three positions" but when I get to 7ths I will have four areas of proximity up the neck?

Onone string set? you mean each on 4 strings? 1234, 3456, ? what is a string set?

I LOVE this idea of these forms overlapping.

Do you know of this book, and would you think it could help me also? It is Ted Greene's book called "Modern Chord Progressions"

**brwnhornet59** · 04-27-2012, 08:13 AM

Originally Posted by elixzer

Explain more what you mean 'hear them too'?

As you advance with these ideas and start hearing the relationships of extended harmonies, your ears become more accustomed to them and even start anticipating the next movement or shift/s. You will also start to hear how upper structure (9, 11, 13, variations) affect and control movement, and gain a better sense of when and what you want to add or imply. After a while you will be able to start extending movement with secondary dominants, extended dominants and non diatonic substitutions using modal interchange. This opens up a whole new soundscape of material and options for you to go to the next level.

As you train your ears with these ideas you will start hearing things very differently, allowing you to free your mind from much of the thought process and just concentrate on playing in the moment. It is one of those many aha moments we love to experience...You start hearing how these ideas are the basic building blocks used in most of the tunes you know.

**brwnhornet59** · 04-27-2012, 08:29 AM

Originally Posted by elixzer

So you seem to say that for triads there are "three positions" but when I get to 7ths I will have four areas of proximity up the neck?

Yes. Triads have three positions on one string-set, octave to octave, because they have three notes.

7th chords have four positions on one string set, octave to octave, because they have four notes in them.

Originally Posted by elixzer

On one string set? you mean each on 4 strings? 1234, 3456, ? what is a string set?

Yes. A string set for triads could be, G B E...D G B....A D G or E A D.

String sets for 7th chords would be D G B E...A D G B or E A D G..

But there are many ways to play these chords outside of closed string sets..But I would not concentrate on that until you get this concept down..

Originally Posted by elixzer

Do you know of this book, and would you think it could help me also? It is Ted Greene's book called "Modern Chord Progressions"

Ted is great..Great book as well..You will find many variations in there. It can also confuse you until you get these other ideas under your belt IMO..

**elixzer** · 04-27-2012, 08:56 AM

Really enjoying this thread!!

But there are many ways to play these chords outside of closed string sets..But I would not concentrate on that until you get this concept down..

OK what is way would you say to gain a deep understanding learning these chords?

example, I am trying this song---I come to A9 or another unfamiliar chord etc etc . Ooops I stop. Whats that? I say to meself. So how do you recommend me diggin it? so it will be sinking in

**elixzer** · 04-27-2012, 09:24 AM

another example, D9. I came to it and instead of looking it up I am trying to construct it in bottom two threads but having no luck so I look it up and find you can construct at least two D9 shapes in first two threads but not with the D as the bottom note, and some strings are xed so I am supposing they are inversions?

However in the 4th fret you can find the D as the bottom root position

So hmmmmm---------my main question is the PROCESS of learning this so I understand chord construction