6-fret Universe

[whatswisdom]

By adding 1 fret to the "universe in five frets" concept, you can play arps R-3-5-7-9-11-13 in all keys within Six Frets. Lots of fretboard geometry posts going on at the moment, so I thought I'd throw my hat into the ring. I had been playing these for weeks thinking "five frets, all keys," but not being able to reach the 13 without going outside the box became annoying. So I expanded my thinking by one fret and now it's complete. Think pivot to reach the highest note; no shifts needed.
See DbM7(9)(11)(13) example.

[chord]

||---|Gb |---|---|---|Bb |---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|Eb |---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||Ab |---|---|---|-C-|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|-F |---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|Db |---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|

[/chord]

[ottocat]

If you flop it on your lap and use your thumb ,you can reach 6 frets easily .
You also see the whole fretboard at once .Then you quit seeing boxes .
It does upset some people though .
You hold that guitar "RIGHT" .
Radical move I know .I had to give up playing weedly weedly running scales. Then I started playing more like spontaneous composition , when I could see the whole road .

[JakeAcci]

why 6 frets instead of 5? Why not just play the Ab on the D string and the Gb on the B string?

[TH]

Wayne Krantz uses a 4 fret limitation. If it's not there, he doesn't play it. It necessitates the use of idiosyncratic arpeggiation, a forced awarness of everything you do and a very fresh linearity. Not for everyone but a reminder that when you hold the instrument, you create the universe and you make the rules. When you are the master of that process, people will want to be members of your club.
David

[whatswisdom]

why 6 frets instead of 5? Why not just play the Ab on the D string and the Gb on the B string?

No particular reason. Just another way of thinking about the linear arp movement fully extended.

Wayne Krantz uses a 4 fret limitation. If it's not there, he doesn't play it. It necessitates the use of idiosyncratic arpeggiation, a forced awarness of everything you do and a very fresh linearity.

Absolutely. I've read his Improviser's OS. Great book! I've done some of the exercises and found them excellent for learning the fretboard.

[fep]

You can use 6 frets and the simple ol' 5 patterns of CAGED to do that. I did a video a while back of the scales for every key within 6 frets using CAGED.

And if you can do the scales, then all the arps are in there too.

[JakeAcci]

Wayne Krantz uses a 4 fret limitation. If it's not there, he doesn't play it.

Can you expand a bit more specifically? I'm not sure what you mean.

[cosmic gumbo]

All I know is, if I'm sight reading, I'm usually working a 6 fret section of the neck that'll give me everything I need for a chart.

[bako]

Wayne Krantz used a 4 fret viewpoint to avoid the possibility of playing complete arpeggios and scale which requires 5 frets.
This is aimed at less reliance on more familiar patterns.

the "universe in five frets" concept

That was a quote from my former teacher Ted Dunbar. 2 1/3 octaves of the chromatic scale plus one unison in 5 frets.
It's all there, all keys within the range limits.

A few keys have awkward fingerings within 5 frets. By integrating two adjacent 5 fret positions (also known as 6 frets) all keys will have a friendly fingering in at least one of the 2 positions.

To play 1 3 5 7 9 11 13 in all keys requires 2 2/3 octave of range, beyond the scope of a 5 or 6 fret position.
I also use more of a string group concept rather than a position to play this kind of note sequence, especially if I am playing extensions in a chord scale.

[TH]

Can you expand a bit more specifically? I'm not sure what you mean.

It's something very specific to Wayne's approach. For him the enemy of fresh soloing is the reliance on the familiar, the predictable, the self enclosed package. So he drops himself in a range of 4 frets and surveys the possibilities, playing what is offered in strengths as well as limitations.
It requires that you know the entirety of the fretboard, intervallicly, sonically, and kinesthetically inside and out. But it forces you to create with a fresh canvas and a new toolset each time. New sounds.
What Bako says.
It's not an easy way to play but it's one way to be constantly aware. You live in a street with deep potholes in unexpected places, you'll learn to dance your own steps and see with a heightened awareness.
If you've ever seen his book OS, you'll see his toolset is demanding, exhaustive and works against assumption to bring out what genius you have beyond the "pattern."
David

[JakeAcci]

Wayne Krantz used a 4 fret viewpoint to avoid the possibility of playing complete arpeggios and scale which requires 5 frets.
This is aimed at less reliance on more familiar patterns.

I still don't get it!

I was thinking about it. If I'm playing only using frets 5,6,7,8 as opposed to frets 4,5,6,7,8 then the notes I "lose" access to are Ab on string 6, Db on string 5, Gb on string 4, B on string 3, and Ab on string 1. The Eb on string 2 is covered by fret 8 of string 3.

So we lose, from top to bottom, Ab, B, Gb, Db, and a lower Ab by switching from a 4-8 fret perspective to a 5-8 fret perspective. That's interesting, we go from 29 consecutive chromatic notes to 24 notes that are mostly chromatic but have 5 whole steps mixed in.

But I still don't get it! Excluding the extra fret provides a limitation that results in forcing oneself to have new vocabulary while simultaneously playing lines that are often physically easier to execute? Something like that?

[JakeAcci]

Sorry, made the previous post before TH's went through.

[setemupjoe]

The 6 fret position is taught in the Leavitt Berklee Method books. 4 frets for 4 fingers plus your first finger stretches down for a second fret and your pinkie stretches up for a second fret.

[whatswisdom]

Excluding the extra fret provides a limitation that results in forcing oneself to have new vocabulary while simultaneously playing lines that are often physically easier to execute?

The main thing I took from his 4-fret exercises is that it's a managable amount to take in--a first step towards gaining fluency on the entire fingerboard. While limiting your concentration on a small area that requires no shifting, you are forced to learn each note and its intervallic relationship to all the others within the area without having to worry about anything outside. His other big "mandatory" exercise is that the player learns to read standard notation. ]

[TH]

The main thing I took from his 4-fret exercises is that it's a managable amount to take in--a first step towards gaining fluency on the entire fingerboard. While limiting your concentration on a small area that requires no shifting, you are forced to learn each note and its intervallic relationship to all the others within the area without having to worry about anything outside. His other big "mandatory" exercise is that the player learns to read standard notation. ]

Krantz's system is a ground up system of molecular understanding. It's almost opposite to the transcribe and CAGED system. That's what he's avoiding.
If you want to invent a way of playing that puts you on par with the intimacy and intricacy of a serious composer, you must get beyond genre based cliches and kinesthetic patterns that lock you into a genre sound. That's a lot to ask of a lot of people. But if you want to go there, Krantz's approach looks at the possibility of equality in all notes within a finite space, a small box of molecules with infinite possibility.
Not for everyone, not for most, a project for those few that want to build their own house, neighborhood, kingdom.
Not at all for those that seek to live on the well worn paths of the deified.
David

[whatswisdom]

...a forced awarness of everything you do and a very fresh linearity.

+1. Krantz's is another perspective. The more the better. For me, the 6-fret idea was just that too. Although bako pointed out the need to go beyond that to reach arps 1-3-5-7-9-11-13 in all keys. (I thought I had 'em all within 6 frets.)

[bako]

In 1st position you can get the following 1 3 5 7 9 11 13 arpeggios:

F,Gb,G,Ab,A,Bb,B,C
The 13 of C is A, 5th fret, the highest note in the position.

That still leaves Db,D,Eb and E. Each additional chord adds one more fret.
The 13 of E is C# on the 9th fret.

If you omit the root and play only 3 5 7 9 11 13 then you are good to go.

1st chord is DbMa13 (FAbCEbGbBb)
The 12th chord is CMa13 (EGBDFA) ending on A the highest note in the position.
Got it done with nothing to spare.

[cosmic gumbo]

a reminder that when you hold the instrument, you create the universe and you make the rules.

Krantz understands that jazz involves "personal codex", unlike most wannabe jazz musicians.

[djangoles]

I have a question for anyone that has used the Krantz book....Is it only 4 fret exercises over specific pools/progressions?

[Dookychase]

I once saw Ron Eschete do the 6 fret thing. He played all 12 major scales within a 6 fret area. That was quite a few years ago.

Also, on one of Rich Severson's dvd magazine that he used to do, he had Mitch Holder on as a guest. Mitch was sort of demonstrating the same thing. He played over the changes to a song, if I remember right, was All The Things You Are. He stayed in that 5 or 6 fret area.

He did this just to show it could be done.

[whatswisdom]

Is it only 4 fret exercises over specific pools/progressions?

He calls the note collections "formulas." The 4-fret exercise is suggested for all the formulas in the book. Confining to 4-fret areas force you to learn the notes rather than rely on shapes. For Krantz, the player must 1. Learn to name each note on the fingerboard instantly. 2. Learn to read standard music notation. The most important thing stressed by the author is that the exercises are used to make music. Pick a formula(s) and a 4-fret range and start improvising.

[djangoles]

He calls the note collections "formulas." The 4-fret exercise is suggested for all the formulas in the book. Confining to 4-fret areas force you to learn the notes rather than rely on shapes. For Krantz, the player must 1. Learn to name each note on the fingerboard instantly. 2. Learn to read standard music notation. The most important thing stressed by the author is that the exercises are used to make music. Pick a formula(s) and a 4-fret range and start improvising.

Cool, Thanks... I'm aware of his method from a GP article/lesson from a few years ago....played around with it last nite, gets you out of your comfort zone for sure.

[ecj]

By adding 1 fret to the "universe in five frets" concept, you can play arps R-3-5-7-9-11-13 in all keys within Six Frets. Lots of fretboard geometry posts going on at the moment, so I thought I'd throw my hat into the ring. I had been playing these for weeks thinking "five frets, all keys," but not being able to reach the 13 without going outside the box became annoying. So I expanded my thinking by one fret and now it's complete. Think pivot to reach the highest note; no shifts needed.
See DbM7(9)(11)(13) example.

I can see the benefit in really working hard on a system like this (this is what Leavitt does) if you are going to be doing a ton of sight reading, working as a guitarist in an orchestra, etc., but I wonder how many folks actually have that ambition.

If you look at most of the heavy players that people idolize on these forums (Christian, Reinhardt, Montgomery, Pass, Benson, Martino, McLaughlin, Metheny) they use a ton of position shifts and really tight, comfortable fingerings. I don't really see anyone out there tearing it up who keeps their hand in one place and stretches to grab notes, with the exception of Holdsworth (whose style is pretty idiosyncratic and definitely not standard jazz guitar material).

Maybe I'm wrong, and I'd be interested to see some vids of players putting this kind of stuff into use in an uptempo bebop setting. Absent that, I wonder how much benefit people are really getting from working on these kinds of fingerings.

[whatswisdom]

I can see the benefit in really working hard on a system like this (this is what Leavitt does) if you are going to be doing a ton of sight reading, working as a guitarist in an orchestra, etc.

That would be enough reason right there. Pros know that you can play in all keys without moving anything.

I'd be interested to see some vids of players putting this kind of stuff into use in an uptempo bebop setting.

I'm sure if you search amongst the multitude of jazz vids you'll find examples--Vic Juris, Sco, etc. come to mind.

I wonder how much benefit people are really getting from working on these kinds of fingerings.

Me for sure. I've especially benefited from doing all keys in 1st pos. because of the stretches involved. (Physical.) Note recognition, chord spelling, key center awareness gets my undivided attention. (Mental.) Going higher up the fingerboard is child's play when you can comfortably grap (all keys) fully extended arps in the 1st pos.

[ecj]

That would be enough reason right there. Pros know that you can play in all keys without moving anything.I'm sure if you search amongst the multitude of jazz vids you'll find examples--Vic Juris, Sco, etc. come to mind.Me for sure. I've especially benefited from doing all keys in 1st pos. because of the stretches involved. (Physical.) Note recognition, chord spelling, key center awareness gets my undivided attention. (Mental.) Going higher up the fingerboard is child's play when you can comfortably grap (all keys) fully extended arps in the 1st pos.

I'm watching Vic Juris on this clip, and I don't see him doing anything remotely like the Leavitt method through those changes. He's using positions that allow him to play comfortably with less tension to get the licks out.

More power to you if you are gleaning benefit from the method, I just want to point out that this isn't necessarily "how the pros do it" and might not be the best choice to spend loads of time on.