Confused over complex/ambiguous chord voicings

[Nuff Said]

I've been playing for over 30 years, but even after all this time when I'm playing with someone who plays lots of complex/ambiguous chord voicings my ears get confused and I find it difficult to really relax and play at my best.

I prefer to solo over simpler voicings containing roots, 3rds, 7ths and any extensions, maybe I need some new ears.

Nuff

[brwnhornet59]

Just remember that all of those ambiguous chords have some of those friendly tones that you are used to hearing, in there.

Are you referring to diatonic chords built from Major or HM & MM? Or more abstract slash chords or stacked 4ths?

Knowing where they came from and how they were built is the beginning of understanding their sound and playing against them. You know that.

[Nuff Said]

Just remember that all of those ambiguous chords have some of those friendly tones that you are used to hearing, in there.

Are you referring to diatonic chords built from Major or HM & MM? Or more abstract slash chords or stacked 4ths?

Knowing where they came from and how they were built is the beginning of understanding their sound and playing against them. You know that.

I'm failing to hear what the other player(s) is doing at that moment in time, no set piece, not from a sheet.

Nuff

[brwnhornet59]

Have you stopped, asked and analyzed? Or is this during a gig? Perhaps getting with the individual in a one on one for a few might help you dial in his harmonic motifs.

Also, is the other person randomly choosing these chords or are they following one of the many harmonic recipes of jazz?

[Nuff Said]

Have you stopped, asked and analyzed? Or is this during a gig? Perhaps getting with the individual in a one on one for a few might help you dial in his motifs.

Also, is the other person randomly choosing these chords or are they following one of the many harmonic recipes of jazz?

This is in live situations, when a song is called, its generally re-harmonized in the moment, I miss a lot of these re-harmonizations that a lot of players do hear. A lot of the same tunes are played again and again.

Its ear training that I need or begging for simple chord voicings.

Thanks for responding
Nuff

[brwnhornet59]

There it is, ear training. I knew you knew what you needed. Try experimenting on the tunes with some reharms following formulas that you know, in the practice room. I bet it will pay off in real time playing for you in many ways.

[JakeAcci]

From the description, they could be doing a variety of things. I'd be interested in hearing a recording.

If anything, might be prudent for you to have a recording to then go back and try to figure out what the voicings used were and why. Could be a lot of work but could be worth it. Similarly, just asking them (or taking a lesson) to learn about some of their harmonic methods for comping could shed light on an issue that you could stay in the dark about for your whole life. That can be humbling and awkward but the result could be invaluable.

I think it's a little bit of a dick move to play advanced reharms behind a soloist when it's clear the soloist is having trouble following what's going on. The comp is supposed to support the soloist, right? Is it possible that rather than reharmonizing, they are playing voicings that are very heavy on tensions and extensions with less of the more predictable notes?

I've found something that more modern/advanced accompanists I've played with do is just sub other chords from the mode of the moment. Example, if the chord for the tune is Bbmaj7 they might think "Bbmaj7 = Bbmaj7#11 = Bbmaj13#11 = Em7b5" and end up playing that Em7b5. It's not exactly a sub perse, just a voicing for Bbmaj13#11. It can be easy to get lost but you can learn to hear a moment of harmony as part of a mode rather than one specific chord. It's just one technique.

While ear training is essential, the concept of ear training is very large and general. In this case, there are specific things that these compers are doing that it seems like you'd like to be able to aurally grasp at a higher level, it's not just a general issue of having better ears. I think a direct approach is either recording what they play an analyzing it, or asking them directly (or taking a lesson) and learning about some of their harmonic methods for comping. Once the method and material is familiarized a bit, the process of ear training can be focused towards a specific goal. (For example, maybe identifying modal clusters is the thing that needs to be addressed here, or maybe it's hearing a plethora of different cadences in place of the original)

Lastly, if the reharms and comping is solid to the tune, you should be able to play as if they were playing straight changes and it should all "work."

[Nuff Said]

From the description, they could be doing a variety of things. I'd be interested in hearing a recording.

If anything, might be prudent for you to have a recording to then go back and try to figure out what the voicings used were and why. Could be a lot of work but could be worth it. Similarly, just asking them (or taking a lesson) to learn about some of their harmonic methods for comping could shed light on an issue that you could stay in the dark about for your whole life. That can be humbling and awkward but the result could be invaluable.

I think it's a little bit of a dick move to play advanced reharms behind a soloist when it's clear the soloist is having trouble following what's going on. The comp is supposed to support the soloist, right? Is it possible that rather than reharmonizing, they are playing voicings that are very heavy on tensions and extensions with less of the more predictable notes?

I've found something that more modern/advanced accompanists I've played with do is just sub other chords from the mode of the moment. Example, if the chord for the tune is Bbmaj7 they might think "Bbmaj7 = Bbmaj7#11 = Bbmaj13#11 = Em7b5" and end up playing that Em7b5. It's not exactly a sub perse, just a voicing for Bbmaj13#11. It can be easy to get lost but you can learn to hear a moment of harmony as part of a mode rather than one specific chord. It's just one technique.

While ear training is essential, the concept of ear training is very large and general. In this case, there are specific things that these compers are doing that it seems like you'd like to be able to aurally grasp at a higher level, it's not just a general issue of having better ears. I think a direct approach is either recording what they play an analyzing it, or asking them directly (or taking a lesson) and learning about some of their harmonic methods for comping. Once the method and material is familiarized a bit, the process of ear training can be focused towards a specific goal. (For example, maybe identifying modal clusters is the thing that needs to be addressed here, or maybe it's hearing a plethora of different cadences in place of the original)

Lastly, if the reharms and comping is solid to the tune, you should be able to play as if they were playing straight changes and it should all "work."

An exceptional reply, many thanks, I'll let you know how I get on with your suggestions.

Nuff

[jazzadellic]

The number one job of an accompanist is to make the soloist sound good. I'd have a talk with this person, and don't feel like you are at fault. It sounds to me like he is not doing his job, not necessarily that he's "more advanced" than you. It might even be that he doesn't even know what he is doing, and just plays weird (and bad) voicings to try to "sound advanced". I remember someone mentioning how they played tritone subs for every single chord in the tune...and I'm thinking, wow that's incredibly stupid thing to do, especially if you are playing with someone. Using tritone subs only sounds good in contrast to the diatonic harmony, if you use tritone subs for everything, it defeats the purpose, and you also will completely confuse the entire band and audience as to what key you are in. I'd explain to him the situation and ask him politely if he could keep it simple for you.

[mr. beaumont]

I think it's a little bit of a dick move to play advanced reharms behind a soloist when it's clear the soloist is having trouble following what's going on. The comp is supposed to support the soloist, right? Is it possible that rather than reharmonizing, they are playing voicings that are very heavy on tensions and extensions with less of the more predictable notes?

Agreed.

In a jam session environment, the KISS principle rules. The soloist is leading the group...if you hear them going for an idea, you can back them up...if you know they have a great ear, you can challenge 'em. But this sounds like a hack to me...made up his cool reharm, and dammit, he's gonna play it, whether anybody else knows what he's doing or not.

If you're working regularly with a group, you can talk about stuff...Some folks think everything in jazz has to be improvised, in the moment...you think the greats didn't talk about the music?

[brwnhornet59]

Agreed.

In a jam session environment, the KISS principle rules.

you think the greats didn't talk about the music?

Keeping things simple is always the polite thing to do. Talking about what you aren't hearing is the logical thing to do. Taking the bull by the horns and correcting the problem is the right thing to do.

[Spirit59]

I've found something that more modern/advanced accompanists I've played with do is just sub other chords from the mode of the moment. Example, if the chord for the tune is Bbmaj7 they might think "Bbmaj7 = Bbmaj7#11 = Bbmaj13#11 = Em7b5" and end up playing that Em7b5. It's not exactly a sub perse, just a voicing for Bbmaj13#11. It can be easy to get lost but you can learn to hear a moment of harmony as part of a mode rather than one specific chord. It's just one technique.

That's what might very well be happening here - your friends might not be reharmonizing at all - maybe just making more chords from the chord scale of the moment... try to keep soloing as if the chords you expect to be there *are* there, and you may be surprised to find out that everything sounds great!

[TH]

Hey there,
It sounds like there are a lot of sounds there. Yeah the history of jazz will show anyone that even the same tune can have a totally different sound depending on how people perceive a few notes. Sometimes there needs to be the unspeakable: a little talk.
Maybe what you take to be complex voicings are experiments one person has been dying to try out. Maybe they are simple substitutions that have a rhythmic displacement. Maybe they are notes somebody hears but doesn't make it to the fingers intact (polite speak for they need practice.) Maybe they are actually trying to play the way you want them to sound but they also think they are Herbie Hancock in Mile's later band. The bottom line is, there's a discrepancy in the way you guys are hearing the MUSIC. And it may also be that you are depending on them to tell you where you are and they want to give you the chance to play something you cannot hear.
All these things might be going on; we can't know. You won't know. They won't know. But you can talk, and maybe you'll find you are a lot closer to having fun, making real music than you think.
I'll ask one thing: How comfortable are you hearing the structure of the music without/in-spite-of what they are playing? Can you solo on the pieces that are called, and can you do this by ear? Without the chart? Can they?
This is a very good place to have as a foundation; it affords you the chance to listen to one another as you play.
If you both have an underlying commonality, and if that is the music (not the chart), then you can build on that. If your assumptions and needs are different in this aspect, maybe both of you need to find more like-minded people to play with. Don't let your differences get in the way of having fun!
David

[Dark Star]

I the last band I was in the bass player told me to avoid the root. The keyboard player told me to avoid the 5th. So I gave up guitar & bought one of these:

[Reg]

There are many levels of playing from jazz lead sheets, or from memory of... etc... Generally in jazz the changes as well as the melody are simply a basic outline... One chord can represent or imply a Chord Pattern. A Chord Pattern is a series of changes that is typical or standard in jazz,( any tune can be a chord pattern). That series of changes are usually from jazz tunes or parts of tunes. Can be as simple as a, I VI II V or as complex as a Wayne Shorter set of changes... There is always more implied than the basic notated chords. Part of playing jazz is to become aware.
One of the difficulties is that it takes years of playing and studying jazz to become aware of all the standards.(especially through trial and error) And generally they can be mixed and used simultaneously.
And of course we as jazz players can harmonically pull from any of the standard four jazz concepts,(Melodic Minor, Blue Note influence, Modal Interchange and Modal style), and in any combination...
I've hosted a Jazz Jam for years... Jazz is not Memorize and Perform... Part of going to a jazz jam is to learn how to play Jazz... not to memorize a tune and then perform... Just as you get frustrated with changes you don't hear of understand... WE as jazz players... also get frustrated with musicians who don't hear or understand...
I do help and explain what's going on while we're playing, I help keep everyone aware of Form... etc... Before you play, explain where your at, or bring an arrangement... with details.
An experienced Jazz player can add whatever he chooses and will not change the basic tune. Most tunes have a harmonic rhythm with plenty of room to fill and still not change the harmonic feel of the tune, and generally we alter or re-harm on weak side of that Harmonic rhythm.
If you would like some examples... let me know and I'll help go through changes...
Reg

[M-ster]

... might be prudent for you to have a recording to then go back and try to figure out what the voicings used were and why. Could be a lot of work but could be worth it.

This! Just record one of the sessions and dig into the stuff that's confusing you.

Lastly, if the reharms and comping is solid to the tune, you should be able to play as if they were playing straight changes and it should all "work."

Also true. Good response from Jake.

[oldane]

But this sounds like a hack to me...made up his cool reharm, and dammit, he's gonna play it, whether anybody else knows what he's doing or not.

I got that thought too. It may not be the OP who has a problem. Comping is not the same as soloing, and IMHO a comper is not supposed to play hide and seek with the soloist - unless of course it has been agreed upon beforehand as part of the fun. The comper should support, not confuse.

I remember a story about Lester Young on the road with JATP. He was backed by the Oscar Peterson trio and apparently the trio really got themselves worked far out during Oscars solo. Whatever, just before it was Lesters turn to reenter, he sidestepped towards the piano and wispered to Oscar: "Lady P., where the heck are you motherfuckers at?". What he forgot was the mic in the piano only two feet from his mouth. The audience heard everything loud and clear and responded with laughter and applause. After the concert, Norman Granz told Lester to stay as he wanted a word with him. Lester then sat there waiting for Granz with a mock embarrased expression on his face, telling the others that "Lady Norman wants to give me a free lesson on good behavior."

[JakeAcci]

I wanted to add a few things, maybe not enough coffee yet to clearly organize my thoughts, but here goes:

1. Based on the OP's description, we don't have enough information to clearly state what is going on here and who, if anybody, is to blame. For example, it could be that, as Reg seemed to be alluding to, that the band is actually playing pretty straight forward (relatively) and has the expectation that any soloist playing with them will be ready to handle what they are dishing out. On the complete opposite end of possibilities, it could be that the band doesn't know what the hell they are doing, the piano/guitar is trying a bunch of "complex" voicings that do not work and are not harmonically appropriate, and any soloist with non-herculean ears would be just as lost as Nuff Said was. Without a recording, we don't actually know, so I'm not sure it's fair to instantly jump to either of those conclusions.

2. Responding to the posts that point more fingers at the accompaniment, what hasn't been mentioned much in this thread is the fact that part of playing specifically in a more "modern" style is actually to intentionally make many elements of the composition more ambiguous - time, harmony, etc. Some people get very bored and find little pleasure in playing something like ATTYA with drop 2 voicings and clearly stating beat one of every measure, so things get harmonically and rhythmically pushed around. Reg made mention of this idea, but I wanted to add in that it's something that is often more prominent in more modern styles, and it's done differently in different sub-genres of jazz. Older styles often have less ambiguity, but obviously it varies. One possibility in this situation is that Nuff Said was sitting in and expecting to hear a more traditional comp but the people he was playing with 'hear' the tunes more in the style of Brad Mehldau, Mark Tuner, Kurt Rosenwinkel, etc.

While it's definitely the role of the comper to support the soloist, there also might be an assumption made even before the count off that the soloist is familiar with say, broken feel, or hearing small clusters behind their solo rather than typical 3/7 voicings and walking. A nice example of ATTYA played with more liberal rhythmic concepts (but still very much in time):

[JakeAcci]

Sorry, I didn't at all mean to give the impression that you can expect an advanced/modern accompanist to comp in the way that Tim was treating the head. That would be absurd, because in that clip he is both playing the melody and accompanying himself.

The clip was an example of harmonic and rhythmic treatment of a standard. In the same way that that trio is having fun playing with the time and rhythms in an unconventional way, it's not unusual to expect a comping instrument to treat voicings and harmony with freedom and technical experimentation. In the way that that trio makes the time more ambiguous than it usually is in "classic" jazz, a modern interpretation of comping can make the harmony more ambiguous than it is on say, an Aebersold.

I hope the analogy, and reason for posting the clip, is now more clear.

Nobody likes it when they can't solo over what the band is doing, but the band doesn't like it when the soloist can't hang with anything more complicated than the most predictable (or old fashioned) treatment of the time and harmony. Comping should be about supporting the soloist, but also sounding good, right? Part of sounding good is (sometimes) bringing new ideas to the table instead of the same tired old rhythms and voicings. When an accompanist is far beyond the point of comfort comping in the style of Wynton Kelly or Wes Montgomery they often want to try different ways of supporting the soloist that can make the whole ensemble sound more interesting.

"I don't like modern jazz." I know, if that's your perspective, I hear you, but I think everybody needs to understand that even though in 2012 some people are trying very hard to sound like 1959, some people are not. Going to play with other people it's an important thing to remember - something I used to get burned by.

[mr. beaumont]

If the pianist was worth a damn, he'd hear that the soloist couldn't follow him and ease up.

If he's bored, you hash it out later...don't invite the soloist back...but why let the music suffer in the meantime?

When the soloist looks bad the whole band looks bad.

[oldane]

2. Responding to the posts that point more fingers at the accompaniment, what hasn't been mentioned much in this thread is the fact that part of playing specifically in a more "modern" style is actually to intentionally make many elements of the composition more ambiguous - time, harmony, etc. Some people get very bored and find little pleasure in playing something like ATTYA with drop 2 voicings and clearly stating beat one of every measure, so things get harmonically and rhythmically pushed around. Reg made mention of this idea, but I wanted to add in that it's something that is often more prominent in more modern styles, and it's done differently in different sub-genres of jazz. Older styles often have less ambiguity, but obviously it varies. One possibility in this situation is that Nuff Said was sitting in and expecting to hear a more traditional comp but the people he was playing with 'hear' the tunes more in the style of Brad Mehldau, Mark Tuner, Kurt Rosenwinkel, etc.

That's all true. But all these things should have been agreed upon BEFORE the musicians enter the bandstand. On the bandstand there should be a mutual understanding on what is going to be played and how. That's what rehersals are for. And if someone is invited to sit in, the band supports him when he soloes. They don't outrace him. If a band invites a saxophonist playing, say, in the style of Ben Webster to sit in, they don't back him up like they would, say, Albert Ayler. But of course comping CAN be used to chase off people who are not wanted on the bandstand. That did happen regularly at Mintons back in the first half of the 1940s when the boppers started.

The famous Danish bassist NHØP has told about an incident when he played behind Booker Erwin with Kenny Drew and Alex Riel. In the first set, Erwin tried the best he could to outrace the others in all kinds of ways, but they hung on. Now, NHØP was a formidable virtuoso and could follow anything, but nevertheless he was greatly annoyed by Erwins attitude and during the first intermission he asked saltily: "Are we going to continue this sports contest or are we making music". Erwin got the message and they made music for the rest of the night.

On the other hand, I can follow that sometimes comping can be boring for a pianist. Kenny Drew has on more than one occation been seen with the newspaper on the piano music stand while comping behind an uninspired soloist playing at the Jazzhouse Montmartre in Copenhagen back in the 1960s.

[mr. beaumont]

That story's hilarious if you've ever heard the joe pass/nhop record "chops."

What a wankfest.

[Nuff Said]

The problem was that I thought I knew the songs, but I didn't really know them, so from now on I'm only playing songs I really know inside out.

Back to the woodshed...

Thanks for the very informative replies.
Nuff

[TH]

Mr Said, Woodshed's a good place. How 'bout you work with a friend in there? Have you ever worked on a piece one phrase at a time? Are there people there where you are who are in a similar place that you are, who want to work on learning tunes deeply? If/when you find them, have fun, yes, but perhaps I might suggest that you don't just take a tune, fire the starting gun and run the changes. Take the first 5 bars of All The Things, the first phrase of Green Dolphin, the first part of How Deep Is The Ocean and make it into a vamp. Loop it and play over it until you can feel musical ideas, not seeing them as merely devices, (chord tones, scale, etc) but as movement. You'll know what I mean when you get there. Then look at the next phrase and get to know it 'til you're surprizing yourself. Put the first two together, they'll be familiar by now but the transition will be something you'll learn to work with. This is a kind of lab for a process of playing a piece. Eventually you'll have a piece that's made up of areas, each of which feels like home, each of which holds an infinite number of sounds. Nobody can shake you off the form when you're there.
I don't know, it works for me, and we learn tons of things this way-not just "getting through" a tune. It's fun. But I'm a newbie compared to you; every time I pick up the instrument it's a new adventure.
Take this as one humble suggestion though, I'm sure there are a lot of people here that will tell you to transcribe and that I'm full of poo poo. Accept that too.
David

[Reg]

Good advice... basically all tunes are short or long phrases connected through some type of FORM. Just as you become comfortable with the many chord patterns, phrases, grooves, feels, accent patterns and on and on... put in some woodshed time understanding FORMS of tunes, and how the harmonies work in the sections and how the section or parts of the FORM relate and work with each other... You would be amazed how simple tunes become, re-harms or not. Sorry about the FORM thing... it's really that important.
Here's a few videos of a few standard re-harmed, from previous threads... nothing great, but should help see how even true re-harms,(new tonal centers), still fit into the FORM.
The first one is How Insensitive

The second example is Days of Wine and Roses

Thanks Reg