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I was watching Tuck Andress' old "Hot Licks" video on solo guitar mastery, and he was explaining a very interesting concept of finding chord notes to comp with while simultaneously walking a bass line.
He started tailing about something that I remember Holdsworth trying to explain, except I couldn't really understand as much when Alan was trying to explain it. But Tuck made it pretty clear: say you're playing a chromatic bass line, and you decide to find a chord to comp along with it, are you going to be a slave to the common "grips" you know (the standard inversions, drop 2s, drop 3s, etc) and fumble around looking for, what he termed "safe spots that you are comfortable with" , or will you find the notes you need when you need them?
Holdsworth called these "note families". Tuck uses the concrete example of a G7 chord (with any possible extension)---when he started the example, he stated with that drop 3 G13 everyone knows (R-7-3-13) on the 3rd fret. But suppose you start walking up the neck with some bass notes, and instantly decide that you need that same chord quality up the neck, the best way he described is not to rely on common grips/inversions, but to map out, on each string, the associated chord tones (R-3-5-7-9-13, etc) really know where they are on each string, and just proceed to grap any combination of chord tones, regardless if whether they "fit" into a conventional grip/inversion or not. out all the possibilities, and get your ears around those sounds.
It is, in part, a way to get around the technical fingering difficulties you may encounter and develop a sense of finger independence--what happens if the "Wrong" finger lands on a bass note and you can't readily access the chord tones because the fingerings are off? The answer, as Tuck postulates, is to "grab what you can" "when you can grab it" and not to box yourself in to the conventional grips.
Of course, mapping out all the chord tones on one string, then all the stings, and then grabbing whatever relevant combination of these notes you can grab, at a moment's notice, while walking a chromatic bass line, is quite an endeavor.
I think I finally understood what Holdsworth was talking about. But it took the pedagogic lucidity of Tuck Andress to make it clear.
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01-16-2012 05:47 PM
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The Van Eps methodology also is a great help in this endeavor; he likens it to schools of fish swimming along, then darting this way and that. This is the level of mastery of the guitar that is a lifetime pursuit. I can suggest, from experience, that learning tunes this way will build a large vocabulary of voice-leading choices, since most tunes are made up of standard patterns of chord motion.
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I agree, good points to bring up.
I try to think of chords the same way composers through out history have generally thought of chords, if my understanding is correct; the somewhat incidental vertical mashing of several melodies played at the same time.
For a long time I've always thought that when it comes to chords it's best to think of the guitar as six separate instruments, and if you're improvising or composing you're giving instruction to (up to) six different players
Of course, that's being idealistic to an extent...we all have to rely on familiar grips to a certain extent, especially dependent on tempo and familiarity with the tune. I think it's at least more helpful to have memorized voice leading sequences instead of stand-alone voicings, then you have a 'chunk of melodies' at your disposal, rather than disconnected chord grips.
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I'm trying to think of 4 voices moving--bass, top, and 2 inner voices.
Originally Posted by JakeAcci
In terms of fingerboard application and tone mapping, I visualize it as a world of triads (R and 2 inv) existing on 4 separate string sets, I guess those are sort of "grips". But they help me visualize the instrument and make sense of it, acting as guideposts--a piano player has it much easier, I suppose. Thus, I practice exercises like finding 12 A minor triads in the minimal amount of time, starting from the nut.
hell, v. Eps even coined the term "the MIGHTY TRIAD" in his method book.
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Nice idea . . . sounds like a sh*t-ton of work. :-) But that idea of thinking of the successive chord tones up a string (R-3-5-7-R-3-5-7- etc.) is a good one. I'll play around with this tonight.
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I can now, once I know a tune well and can concentrate less on "form" because it feels more natural, see the fretboard as a ever changing "pool" of notes...
It took a long time to get here...and I have a long way to go to really make it work for me...again, as I always blab on about, teaching myself to play chord melody taught me the most about it...also, trying to really visualize 3rds and 7ths first, and treating everything else as "color" or "melody." I've spent a lot of time practicing playing thee "meat and potatoes" of a chod and playing around with every possible melody/color combination possible at the moment...
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Ted Greene had a similar insight. Take a chord like Am7
X 0 2 0 1 0
That top open E string is an octave of the E on the D string so we can lose it.
X 0 2 0 1 X
In this chord we have R 5 b7 b3
Next step, figure out what those notes are
R = A
b3 = C
5 = E
b7 = G
So that fingering is A E G C
Now, for each note in the chord move up to the next chord tone on the same string.
A --> C
C --> E
E --> G
G --> A
So in our chord of A E G C we need to play C G A E
That gives us X 3 5 2 5 X
Shifting one more time gives us
E A C G
or X 7 7 5 8 X
(I'm doing this in my head without a guitar so I hope I'm visualizing the chords properly)
Shifting once more would be
G C E A
X 10 10 9 10 X (Again, I hope I'm visualizing this correctly)
Since there are 4 notes in this chord there will be 4 inversions. If you added a 9th giving us a 5 note chord you could construct 5 shapes on any group of strings.
Ted, of course, would do this with every common chord type on every group of strings in every key.
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That seems like it adds extra thinking to the whole process, at least for the drop-2 example you've provided. Since I've already memorized the successive drop-2 "shapes" as they go up the neck, it wouldn't make any sense to me to convert shape to chord-tone to note before I invert it. I can see where this method would be good if you're working with an initial chord shape that is unfamiliar, however. But getting to the point where all of this thinking occurs in realtime would be quite a task!!
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The process you just described is the process of inverting a drop 2 form. Memorizing all of those is usually on a jazz guitarists 'need to know' list for all chord types. In my opinion I think you can get by without them, but it really does help. Originally Posted by Greg Brouelette
Knowing a lot of those drop 2 and drop 3 inversions is certainly important - but they are grips, and, I think the thread title here sums it up well: "harmonic freedom vs playing grips"
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Not that you asked for advice, but I would say to not discredit both smaller and larger 'chords.' Smaller voicings can be incredibly hip and descriptive - 3, 2, or even 1 note 'chords' (if you're playing with other instruments, then there's a 'chord' being played even if you're only playing one note!) And larger voicings have their uses as well...I usually use them when there are fewer instruments present or if I'm playing solo. However many voices, the same approach applies - each voice is heard and its direction should be treated with care. Or something.I'm trying to think of 4 voices moving--bass, top, and 2 inner voices.
That's interesting. I guess we all have things that are easiest to see on the neck depending on our background. Even before I was into jazz I did a lot of stuff improvising multiple voices usually in a modal context, and there were some counterpoint exercises I did when I was younger, so that's influenced how I approach comping for sure. I also played a lot of modal stuff, so I think the easiest thing for me is honestly to just see the 'mode of the moment' and go from there. Sometimes when I'm comping I don't necessarily even think of the chord that much , but more some moving lines through the mode, even if they create what would be vertical harmonic clashes.In terms of fingerboard application and tone mapping, I visualize it as a world of triads (R and 2 inv) existing on 4 separate string sets, I guess those are sort of "grips". Thus, I practice exercises like finding 12 A minor triads in the minimal amount of time, starting from the nut.
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What would you call this approach?
The oriiginal chords were just a ii-V-I in C, and the melody was: C (dotted half) B A (8ths) | G
I thought it would be cool to have the bass ascend: D D# E, then I just filled in the middle voices:
I wouldn't normally pull x6x667 out of nowhere as a GDom chord, but it fit between the other two chords. Is this what we are talking about?Code:+-8------(8)--7-5--+---- +-6-------6--------+-8-- +---------6--------+-5-- +-7----------------+-9-- +-5-------6--------+-7-- +------------------+----
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I agree about "smaller and bigger" voices--I guess Tuck was talking about comping in his context, where he is the entire band, backs his wife, the singer, uses baselines and 2-3 other notes, as needed, for the accompaniment. Originally Posted by JakeAcci
I attended a master class by Howard Alden, and asked him the following question, which he said absolutely nailed his approach. My question was:
"So, from what I understand, you sort of have a 'string division of labor'-strings 1 and 2 for the melody, 3 and 4 for most likely the guide tones-3rds and 7ths--and strings 5 and 6 for the root progression?"
He said that was in fact his approach.
I suppose it also means that while you can reserve all 6 strings for certain general tendencies and purposes, that doesn't mean that you should always necessary fill up the space all the time with all six strings.
Gil Evans once distilled what true melodicism in his approach, which was to, on top of any thing else, develop the lyricism of his INNER VOICES, really make them shine and come through.
I would think one would definitely have to write that shit out, certainly at first, that to develop the level of technique required to really get all the voices moving and flowing has to be considerable. Or, as you say, "treated with care"
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Cool thread. Great replies. I dig the flexible pool of notes ideas, the movement of voices, etc. I also like some "grips" that are highly reusable and work into melodic comping. I look for opportunities to employ favorite "ambitious" upper partial voicings in fresh contexts- something you will see Bill Evan's left hand do in his 50's-60's playing quite often (I've gone through several piano transcriptions to verify this). There is a balance.
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Dominant chords are versatile. They can include 11 of 12 notes (not all at the same time) Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
G7
G---1
Ab--b9
A---9
Bb--#9
B---3
C---sus4
C#-#11
D---5
Eb--b13
E---13
F---b7
F# is the 3rd of D7 and leading tone to G. Easily useable in passing.
Your chord---D# C# F B has the tritone (B F) + #5 and #11 (D# C#). A little function, a little color, life is good.
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using symmetric harmony on dom chords makes use of most of these tones..i think of dom 7 chords as four chords and their alterations.. Originally Posted by bako
ex: G7 Bb7 Dd7 E7 this to me is one chord...this takes a bit of practice to get under your fingers and in your thinking and apply it with some confidence..but when it takes root..its harmonic freedom..placing a V7 or subs or turnaround progressions in front of these chords adds great harmonic and melodic ideas
think when you begin to alter the chords and the polytonality of slash chords ..yes..van epps, ted greene show the power of economy of movement and the harmonic results of just one note change between chords..
check ted greene lessons on his webpage..lots of great ideas..
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Yep, that's what I'm talking about at least. Taking the approach of looking at voices separately you can come up with new "chords" every day, and new functions for familiar structures. Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
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Related ideas (lesson) by Bert Ligon:
http://www.music.sc.edu/ea/Jazz/Line...%20Voicing.htm
"Never play chords when comping." This usually gets the attention of my guitar and piano students. I'll say this after hearing them comp using learned voicings that have no real sense of direction. "Play melodies." I want them to hear and think about where those chords came from and where they might lead, and make choices based on musical phrases that rise and fall. We hear music in time, which is linear. I want them to consider every chord they play as part of a larger melodic shape.
Like planning any trip: decide the destination, then decide the route. . (It isn't where you came from, it's where you're going that counts. -Ella Fitzgerald) Find a chord that leads logically to each destination chord.
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