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I love this one here too.
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12-17-2016 12:34 PM
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That is great stuff. As for Herb and Ray, they worked together a lot, most notably in the Oscar Peterson Trio. Ray plays bass on Herb's instructional video (now DVD). They fronted a sextet for awhile and put two good albums now available in a 2-CD set called "In The Pocket." And of course they are....
Originally Posted by neatomic
[Secret shoutout to Richard S.]
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Some interesting details of Freddie Green's approach here:
Distilling Big Band Guitar: The Essence of Freddie Green
I have been listening to the Rhythm Willie album and you can hear Freddie varying between 1, 2 or 3 notes at different points.
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I also dug out my CD of Milt Jackson + Count Basie + the Big Band (1978) and Freddie is quite high in the mix and brightly recorded on that one, especially in the quieter sections.
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02-26-2017, 09:54 AM #55Dutchbopper Guest
New Blog entry with a short instructional video by yours truly.
Dutchbopper's Jazz Guitar Blog: Freddie Green Style Comping
Have fun,
DB
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Nice overview of the three-note chord style of comping, DB, though some might question the association with Freddie Green. I'm far from being an expert in the Freddie Green style, but James Chirillo's videos seem to connect Freddie more with the one-note, "walking tenor" style of comping. Thoughts on that? Please note I'm not criticising, just curious about what seem to be two interpretations of what Freddie Green did.
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02-26-2017, 10:35 AM #57Dutchbopper GuestHowdy Bob, Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
I'm no expert myself either . I do not necessarilly refer to Freddie Green himself. I could have called it "rhythm guitar comping" or "big band style" or whatever. The term "Freddie Green style" has become kind of generic for the style I guess. So you may be right. I did consult freddiegreen.org though and there's probably a lot more to be said about the issue there. My Blog entry is no more than an introduction of course and I use the term "Freddie Green Comping Style" more to denote the style than the man himself.
Regards,
DB
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I know this was asked of DB, who responded, but I want to add a note. Often Freddie only SOUNDED one note but he FRETTED more than that. A big part of this style has to do with its percussive quality and that comes from hitting several (-really, the same amount) of strings on each stroke. (Or at least on most strokes.) Otherwise, he would just be picking out a single note line, but Freddie was not doing that. Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
Here is Freddie Green with Herb Ellis from the record they made together. NOT a big band record but you get to hear Freddie better than you can on many of the records he made with Basie.
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It's all good, guys. I was just curious. I play the three or two-note style myself, and have often called it FG style. But I've been made aware that some guys don't think it should be. But, whatever, it's a great way to play guitar, and a lot of fun. Thanks again to DB for his overview.
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Good stuff, DB. (As usual.)
That bit of advice in the OP about TIME being more important than voicings is spot on. It's about the swing. (As Hamlet nearly said, "The swing's the thing / Wherein I'l catch the conscience of the King.")
Here's an interesting video on "how to freaking swing" by Aimee Nolte. She's a pianist and singer but here she focuses on the comping of Freddie Green. (It's good to hear a non-guitarist give Freddie some love!) I think her "chunk-chunk" exercise is good for people who want to feel this music---which is the key to playing it right.
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Fredie used 1, 2, and 3 note chords as the situation called.
The big secret to the sound I've found is fret 3 notes when you can, even if you're not playing them.
Good vid, DB.
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I love playing that 4-to-the-bar style myself. Cut the chords down to basic shell chords - and even less - one can make great voice leading which sounds like playing little melodies. Forget extensions above the 7th. Don't worry about the 5th. Often the root can also be omitted. The 3rd and the 7th is what defines the chord (major/minor, tonic/dominant etc.). But often one doesn't even need that much because there are others in the band outlining the harmonic structure (piano, horn sections). Often a main concern for the guitarist is to stay out of the way of others - and hope they will stay out of his/her way (which they often don't do). The Count Basie rhythm section was a stellar example of four musicians who each had their own sonic space and didn't step on each others feet. It takes a lot of talking over and practice before that kind of Nirvana is reached. It also takes quite a lot of self moderation. Many don't know that Basie could play a LOT more than what we hear on the Basie band records.
If using an electric guitar I find that a pick sounds too massive. Instead I brush (not pick) the strings with the thumb to get a more airy sound and let the amp take care whatever (little) volume is needed. I brush all six strings but only sound 2 or 3. The others are damped and contribute with a more, percussive sound.
And, oh, when using an amp, keep the volume down. A swing band rhythm guitar is not sopposed to be heard "over the band" but is supposed to blend in with the rhythm section. A Twin Reverb is certainly not needed for that.
Charlton Johnsons book is a great starting point.Last edited by oldane; 02-26-2017 at 05:12 PM.
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I'm working in that now. Originally Posted by oldane
For those unfamiliar with it:
Amazon.com: Swing and Big Band Guitar: Four-To-The Bar Comping in the Style of Freddie Green (0073999951479): Charlton Johnson: Books
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Here's my stab at a comp for "Satin Doll." Pretty much what Charlton Johnson has in his book mentioned above. (Though I wasn't looking at the book when I played it; any unflattering deviations from what he came up with are to be attributed to me.)
The backing track, a midi file, is from Jimmy Bruno's Guitar Workshop. (A Band in a Box file.) It's about 140 bpm, which is faster than I like to play this tune, but I think I'm getting better at keeping steady time without sounding too stiff.)
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Nice job.
I think the medium tempo is the toughest to not sound square at doing FG style.
A little "snap" in the wrist will give you more "oomph," but you're approximating on an eletcric guitar just fine, I'd say.
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Nice Mark. Have you done the chunk-chunk thing for a couple of days? Sound like you have
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Thanks, Jeff. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
The "snap" is tough for me because I had a, well, fetish about picking for so long and wanted my strokes to be as short and light as possible. But this style warrants some snap.
John Pizzarelli does a great job with this style. I would love to have a few songs to comp / sing the way he does. (I don't think "Satin Doll" would be one, though.) "I Got Rhythm" is a must---in G, for me---and "In A Mellow Tone" might be another. "Frim Fram Sauce" I already do. And "Mean To Me," which was the first standard I learned to play and sing. Still love that tune and the lyric.
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Thanks! I've done this off and on for a good while now but I have only scratched the surface. (Mainly 12-bar blues and rhythm changes. Not that those are limited fields----it's my toiling in them that has been limited! I'm going to give the Charlton Johnson book a lot of time this month. It helps that I'm working on singing, so comping chorus after chorus of a standard---this week, "They All Laughed"---feels great. I just wish it sounded a little better... Originally Posted by gersdal
Nice Mark. Have you done the chunk-chunk thing for a couple of days? Sound like you have
)
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Listening to the Savory collection Basie stuff where you get a really good close up of Freddie's playing makes me realise at this point (late 30s) he seems to be playing regular chords. These recordings are a fairly recent discovery AFAIK.
The one note thing must have crept in later. You can certainly hear it on the Second Testament era recordings.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
As the band got bigger, Freddie's voicings got smaller. ;o) With the Kansas City 6 (or 7, depending), the guitar needed to take up more space.
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This is with the early orchestra - which was not a huge band... Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
Actually listening now, I'm not so sure.... Sounds like he's perhaps sometimes doing the one note thing.Last edited by christianm77; 03-06-2017 at 11:03 AM.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Make up your mind! ;o)
James Chirillo (who plays acoustic rhythm guitar with the Jazz at Lincoln Center Orchestra---when they need one) said Freddie played fuller chords early on. You can hear fuller chords on the record he made with Herb Ellis too.
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Band size and tempo affected Freddie's choices.
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The Kansa City 5, 6 & 7 recordings were from 1937 to 1944, and they have as many musicians as their name implies, between 5 and 7. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
The Savory Collection features recordings from 1938 to early 1940, and there is 14 to 16 musicians depending on the tracks.
On the Savory Collection, we can hear Freddy Green play full chords, especially on the slower numbers. On the faster numbers, he's doing full chords too but at times it sounds more like a hybrid of full chord and one or two note techniques. Where in later years, he clearly used the one or two note technique in full band settings, while he was playing full chords with small combos as can be heard on Jazz For Playboys, Freddie Green's Mr. Rhythm as well as Al Cohn albums recorded during the same period with the same personnel, Kenny Burrell's Monday Stroll, and Rhythm Willie, the album he co-lead with Herb Ellis. I think that he clearly adapted his playing not only to the band setting but also to the songs themselves and even to the dynamics within them.
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I reckon he fell back on the one-note thing whenever his hand needed a rest from that fearsome action on his axe.
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