learning/playing rootless chords

**gitarsam312** · 12-28-2011, 07:33 PM

I'm working on playing chords without the root (especially on bottom) when I'm comping. My question is this: Do you learn to play the chords with the root first and then just think "leave the root out" when you play them? Or do you practice finding/playing chords built from their inversions? I've been learning chords with their root and then when I play I have to tell myself to play the chord but not the bottom note. I can't help but feel though that this might hinder me later on. When I see, for example, D7, should I just not even think D and automatically think "F#, C, E" (or whatever).

**donojazz62220** · 12-28-2011, 07:50 PM

I'd recommend playing/learning inversions all over the fretboard, moving across string sets. When you finally get to the to 4 strings pay particular attention to the note that shows up on the 1st string. Work all this against songs not just mindless drills.

**brwnhornet59** · 12-29-2011, 05:54 PM

A good rule of thumb to play 4 note inversion subs, is to play the chord off of the 3rd of the stated chord. ie..

If you want to play a rootless CM7, play E-7, 1,b3,5,b7. This will give you the major 9 sound of C. 3,5,7,9

Rootless D-7, play FM7, 1,3,5,7. This will give you the b3,5,b7,9 of D-7.

Make sense? So now not only are you playing rootless subs with shapes you already know, you are ornamenting the chords with 9ths. No more vanilla.

Try this. ii V I in C.

D-7/G7/CM7

Now play this: FM7/B-7b5/E-7

If you have to play the root note over each 4 note voicing until you hear that you are really playing rootless 9 chord subs for the ii V I

**gitarsam312** · 12-29-2011, 08:41 PM

good info guys, thanks. I was comping and played roots during one chorus, and rootless during another. I realized that with a full band, the root is definitely not needed and the BAND probably sounds better in most cases that way. That way the guitar truly just adds color without too much "weight" if that makes sense. It really makes a surprising difference.

**JonnyPac** · 12-29-2011, 09:06 PM

Originally Posted by gitarsam312

I'm working on playing chords without the root (especially on bottom) when I'm comping. My question is this: Do you learn to play the chords with the root first and then just think "leave the root out" when you play them?

I'd say yes and no. Inversions are great. Drop voicings are great. But most of the classic rootless voicings used in the laft hand of the piano players converted to guitar make root playing difficult if not impossible if you try to add the root (maybe with a nose on the low string!). I see rootless voicings with a bass player as an opportunity to get sounds that are otherwise unavailable. I really dig Bill Evans-style voicings, quartal voicings, upper-structures, and other hidden root/rootless voicings. Just be sure to bring a bass player to the gig!

**aniss1001** · 01-01-2012, 07:05 PM

For me it was very useful learning / memorizing the basic inversions of the 4 note chords.

For instance the minor 7th inversions would go like (in G):

1) 3 X 3 3 3 3
2) 6 X 5 7 6 6
3) 10 X 8 10 8 10
4) 13 X 12 12 11 13

Notice that you can omit either of the E strings and when comping with band you would tipically comp with the upper 4 strings only.

If you do this for the basic chords: m7, M7, 7, m7b5, 7#5 you will find that creating extended chords is a matter of lowering or raising one or more notes (tipically the 5th and the root) is quite easy.

Ah and while learning this you will probably discover quite a few new grips and you will also find a lot of grips that can be used in other contexts. For instance these are the inversion of a Gm7b5 chord:

1) 3 X 3 3 2 3
2) 6 X 5 6 6 6
3) 9 X 8 10 8 9
4) 13 X 11 12 11 13

Now look at the 2nd inversion. You'll probably recognize the grip on the upper 4 strings as both an A7#5(b9) and a Bbm7(13) chord. Thus you have suddenly learned 3 other voicings of each of these chords as well

Another great thing about this is that you can start relating each of these basic inversion with scale/arp positions which has helped me a lot in connecting it all together and navigating the fretboard.

**brwnhornet59** · 01-02-2012, 12:19 AM

Now your getting it!

**JonnyPac** · 02-12-2012, 03:46 PM

I finally made a video lesson on "rootless", or as I prefer to call them "upper-partials" or "upper-structure" voicings (grips). Check it out!

**brwnhornet59** · 02-12-2012, 06:27 PM

Great job Jonny. keep em coming!!

**JonnyPac** · 02-13-2012, 04:11 PM

Originally Posted by brwnhornet59

Great job Jonny. keep em coming!!

Thanks, bro! All the new lessons are on my site with added text info and material. Catch it!

**Robertkoa** · 03-12-2012, 01:49 PM

what would be the advantages of omitting the Root versus just playing the whole chord ?

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 03-12-2012, 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by Robertkoa

what would be the advantages of omitting the Root versus just playing the whole chord ?

1. If you are playing with a bass player, you are just doubling what he's doing and perhaps getting in the way.

2. More options are always good.

**mr. beaumont** · 03-12-2012, 02:55 PM

Originally Posted by Robertkoa

what would be the advantages of omitting the Root versus just playing the whole chord ?

You might even say that when you get into root on the bottom chords on the fifth and sixth string that you are stepping into the bassist's "zone."

Of course, some bassists like a little more freedom and they might actually like it if you put some roots on the bottom...good thing to talk about, or you'll find out very quickly on the bandstand from the angry glares

**brwnhornet59** · 03-12-2012, 03:10 PM

Originally Posted by Robertkoa

what would be the advantages of omitting the Root versus just playing the whole chord ?

It also will open you up to the use of inversions and extensions. This holds true with soloing options as well. Though they tend to be more vanilla, the same principal can be applied when you understand the process and start hearing/using modal interchange, borrowing from MM, chromatic leading tones etc...

It is always a preferred method to hide your approach with deceptive cadence, omitting root and 5th as well is quite common.

**JakeAcci** · 03-12-2012, 06:31 PM

In a sense, there is no "whole chord" to play.

**paynow** · 03-13-2012, 07:43 PM

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

1. If you are playing with a bass player, you are just doubling what he's doing and perhaps getting in the way.

2. More options are always good.

And sometimes in the way of the piano player as well. One guy I used to work with regularly was great at walking bass lines; another guy was really weak. I adjusted my comping accordingly. The bass line cat also played a lot of HUGE voicings where he didn't need me in the way with large guitar chords. You go for the 3rd and 7th and the extensions nearer the top. I got to the point where I could comp an entire song playing just 3rds and 7ths, really lay back, if that's what they were into.

I learned quickly to leave the root out one night on the bandstand, when I was very young, and the bass player threatened to have the club owner get one of his boys to "whack" me. They really don't dig it. Sometimes no 5th either.

You're getting a lot of great advice here from some of the best teachers on this forum. I wouldn't say that you have to think of the chord as rootless, you just need to get to the point where you understand how to play chords without the root. Still think of it as D7, whatever.

**JonnyPac** · 03-20-2012, 09:36 PM

I just dumped a ton charts of voicings in this thread:

JonnyPac's Lesson on Upper-Structure Voicings (and Chord-Tone Soloing)

Enjoy!

**nado64** · 03-23-2012, 07:47 AM

Originally Posted by gitarsam312

I'm working on playing chords without the root (especially on bottom) when I'm comping. My question is this: Do you learn to play the chords with the root first and then just think "leave the root out" when you play them? Or do you practice finding/playing chords built from their inversions? I've been learning chords with their root and then when I play I have to tell myself to play the chord but not the bottom note. I can't help but feel though that this might hinder me later on. When I see, for example, D7, should I just not even think D and automatically think "F#, C, E" (or whatever).

When I see D7, I think "positions on the fretboard"

[chord]

||---|-2-|---|--, -|---|-5-|--, -|-7-|---|---, -|---|-8-|---, ...
||-1-|---|---|--, -|---|-5-|--, -|-7-|---|---, -|-7-|---|---, ...
||---|-2-|---|--, -|---|-5-|--, -|---|-8-|---, -|---|---|-9-, ...
||---|-2-|---|--, -|-4-|---|--, -|---|---|-9-, -|-7-|---|---, ...
||---|---|---|--, -|---|---|--, -|---|---|---, -|---|---|---, ...
||---|---|---|--, -|---|---|--, -|---|---|---, -|---|---|---, ...

[/chord]

I learned that, with the aebersold 54, special guitar voicing, very clear and no blabla.

**oldane** · 03-23-2012, 09:31 AM

Originally Posted by Robertkoa

what would be the advantages of omitting the Root versus just playing the whole chord ?

Apart from what have already been mentioned about stepping on the bassists toes etc., there is one more point:

If you omit the root and the 5th (and don't use extensions) you are left with the 3rd and the 7th which is all you need to characterize the chord function as major, minor and dominant. As for dominant chords, when playing only the 3rd and the 7th, the tritone sub is exactly the same. These small chords will enable you to get a very nice and fluid voice leading - something that would not be easy with bigger chords with extensions. Now, that might not be so relevant if you play an archetypical modal piece with more or less abrupt shifts from one mode/chord to another, but if you play an old standard in the old fashioned way, which is all about horizontal harmonic flow, good and smooth voice leading sounds so sweet. For my taste, good voice leading is more important than cramming in all kinds of spicy extentions. But that's only my $0.05.