C13b5b9 confusion

[BrooklynTele]

I've been studying guitar like crazy the past several months and I'm starting to actually improve. Amazing how that can happen with practice!

Anyway, I have a problem and question.
Currently I am studying various chord progressions from the Guitar Grimoire series. I have many of the books and enjoy them and the theory.

My question is about the C13b5b9 chord I have found in a book. Figure 320 on page 194 of the Progressions and Improvisation book has this chord (4th chord on the top). My problem with it, is I can't find the root note at all. It looks more like an F# Dominant or something. Is it a contextual thing? I wrote the note below and probably didn't sharp and flat correctly.

Also on page 197 figure 323 the second chord, a G13b9 also lacks the root or any intervals I would have expected in a G chord.

For a novice student trying to understand and memorize intervals and formulas for chords and scales, this is rather confusing. Can anyone shed some light on this?

The notes are (string-note): 6-F# 5-C# 3-Bb 2-E 1-A The F# is second fret of the 6th string. I have a small PNG diagram but I can't seem to upload it.

Thanks for any help!

[JohnW400]

In this instance they moved the C to Db (C#) giving you the b9. This chord is also an F#7#9 which is the tritone of C

as C the notes are the: b5 b9 7 3 13
as F# the notes are the 1 5 3 7 #9

As you get to the chords that have a bunch of extensions it gets difficult to play all the notes. Usually some will get omitted (like the root or 11th)

A C13 b5 b9 version with the root would be:

C Gb Bb E A Db played 8 9 8 9 10 9. tough but doable

[Jim Soloway]

I think one of the things making this hard to understand is simply that you've expressed it in sharps rather than flats. While the sounds maybe the same, it obscures the relationship between the root and the notes being payed. Try spelling the chord before checking their notation. If the root is C, then the 5 is G and the 9 is D, hence the b5 is Gb and the b9 is Db. If you view those string positions in this light, you still don't have a root (and you often won't) but at least you can see how the rest of the chord relates to the root.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

In this instance they moved the C to Db (C#) giving you the b9. This chord is also an F#7#9 which is the tritone of C

I think that sometimes it's easier to think in terms of the tritone substitution rather than the original chord, or at least to give them equal weight in your mind.

But I think this theory may be getting ahead of the practical chording in your book.

[BrooklynTele]

Thanks a lot, folks. I had a feeling sharps were a mistake instead of flats when i wrote it out!

It's making sense now. I had a feeling the root was simply left out. I'll take a closer look at the intervals again. I had tried playing this chord over a C note I recorded into a DD7 hold but it sure didn't sound harmonic! I think I may try again with that C an octave lower.

As for "tri-tone substitution", now I'll have to look that up! As mentioned I am still learning how chord and scale formulas work in intervals and I am slowly learning the staff. It's pretty interesting and difficult to get so far.

Thankfully, fingering has not been a problem for me so far.

I never thought a chord would omit the root! I know it's possible, but not that it may be common in Jazz!

[mr. beaumont]

Root's sometimes the "first to go" in jazz!

As for the tritone, it's a great easy sub...at it's most basic, look at two 7th chords a tritone (6 half steps) apart...particularly look at the 3rd and 7th of those chords.

Let's try the two in your example:

C7: C E G Bb

Gb7: Gb, Bb, Db, E

See how those two notes (E and Bb) reverse roles? Those two notes are the most important notes in a chord, as they define the sound (3rd says major or minor, 7th seperates minor from m/maj7 or major from dominant)

Tritone subs can be used to create chromatic movement in the bass, or to make the melody note a more "interesting" note (play a melody note of C against a C7 and then play it against a Gb7, for example)

THis is just the fist step, but it's a good one.

[JohnW400]

It's making sense now. I had a feeling the root was simply left out. I'll take a closer look at the intervals again. I had tried playing this chord over a C note I recorded into a DD7 hold but it sure didn't sound harmonic! I think I may try again with that C an octave lower.



I never thought a chord would omit the root! I know it's possible, but not that it may be common in Jazz!

Resolve it to the I. It is a dominant chord making it the V. ii -V I. so resolve it to hear how it functions

frets:

24x355 to either
13x255 or
13x233

for example

[Reg]

I always think in terms of where the chord is coming from, and where it's going. By where it's coming from... I mean from analysis or how ever your determine how chord is functioning, which tells you source of pitch collection which tells you the correct spelling of chord tones and tensions. It will also tell you other standard interpretations or implications chord has. If you have the correct starting point the standard spellings, subs, typical re-harms tend to work with harmonic implications of tune.
We all have versions or sources of chord tones and tensions we like or dis-like, but tunes have standard implications... where they pull from, through modal interchange or what ever approach the composer used to determine harmonic choices. There may not be problems first time around but the more layers of harmonic development you go through the more problems or conflicts with standard jazz practice you'll encounter.
The chord you spelled... C13b9b5... is fairly uncommon, some refer to as 5th degree of Double Harmonic , I'm assuming since the chord spelling said b5... the 11th would be natural. Or could be from Symmetrical Dim. and have a #11 and a #9 also or how ever you want to spell... since was called Dom chord usually you would have two 9th as opposed to two 3rds... would really need context to make analysis in reference to tune.... Reg

[Reg]

Does any one have the book, Guitar Grimore series...that Brooklyntele was referencing.... is the chord simply altered from MM and spelled wrong, which is fairly common... Or is it simply Dim. spelled as Dom chord, also very common... usually spelled 1,(b9,#9),3,#11,5,13,b7which makes tri-tone sub process a little more complicated... but fun. just curious...Reg

[Vihar]

It looks more like an F# Dominant or something.

Indeed, I would have called it an F#7#9. And then a grip as simple as the following one could work, only no sparkle of the top strings then:

[Vihar]

Here's a frettable C13b5b9, without open strings:

[brwnhornet59]

[CHORD]

||---|---|---|----|-4--|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|----|-4--|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|-1-|----|----|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|-3--|----|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|-2--|----|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|x|--|---|---|----|----|---|---|---|---|---|---|

Or this

[bako]

A root note can be omitted. In a group, the harmony is created by the total collection of notes being played.
What works well playing solo takes on new meaning as additional notes are sounded.

Looking at this from the other side:

How many notes are needed to indicate a harmonic motion?

Do any or all of the following sufficiently indicate C7 to FMa7

1 note for each chord

Bb-A // G-A // E-F // C-C //

2 notes for each chord

EBb-FA // EC-FC // BbC-AC // BbG-AF

2 notes for each chord (including extensions)

BbA-AG // BbD-AE // EF#-EG // BbF#-BG

2 notes for each chord (including altered notes)

ED#-FE // G#Bb-GA // BbGb-CE // F#A-EG

Try these voicings over C to F root motion and then again on their own and see if you can hold on to the context as if the bass notes were still sounding.

Some like to always include the 3rds and 7ths of each chord to lock in the harmonic meaning of a sequence and add colors around that solid core.
Others (including myself) additionally like to play it looser, more between the cracks.

Concepts are cool but more important is to learn the associated sounds and to develop a sound palette that serves the unique needs of your creativity.

[Jim Soloway]

Indeed, I would have called it an F#7#9. And then a grip as simple as the following one could work, only no sparkle of the top strings then:

Do you understand what a flat five substitution is? (I don't mean to be insulting, I just don't know what your level of understanding is).

The flat five (or tritone) of a dominant (or V chord) is a very common substitution. As I mentioned earlier, the flat five of C is Gb (not F#). So it would be useful to refer to it as Gb is you want to think of it as the flat five of the V. That's basically what you're describing with your F# designation.

Possibly an easier way to see this would be to use a form of the V chord (C7) for beat three and then a form of the flat five substitution for the fourth beat. That way you can see how one acts as a replacement for the other and why both the C7 and Gb7 designations work here. On beat 3, play a C13 (x-3-2-3-5-5). Then on beat 4, play Gb7#9 (2-x-2-3-5-5). Follow that with some form of the I (an F) for a full bar and you'll see how neatly the whole thing resolves. Try an F maj6/9 (1-x-2-2-3-3) as the I for a strong example of how this progression can maintain smooth flow from one chord to the next.

[brwnhornet59]

Polytonality is what fascinates me the most. Implied harmony is killer if approached correctly. Just because it looks or sounds like one thing, does not mean it can't be something else entirely. Changing one Bass note can make all of the difference in the world. Makes you respect it much more!!

[Vihar]

Do you understand what a flat five substitution is? (I don't mean to be insulting, I just don't know what your level of understanding is).

The flat five (or tritone) of a dominant (or V chord) is a very common substitution. As I mentioned earlier, the flat five of C is Gb (not F#). So it would be useful to refer to it as Gb is you want to think of it as the flat five of the V. That's basically what you're describing with your F# designation.

Possibly an easier way to see this would be to use a form of the V chord (C7) for beat three and then a form of the flat five for the fourth bar. That way you can see how one acts as a replacement for the other and why both the C7 and Gb7 designations work here. On beat 3, play a C13 (c-3-2-3-5-5). Then on beat 4, play Gb7#9 (2-x-2-3-5-5). Follow that with some form of the I (an F) for a full bar and you'll see ow neatly the whole thing resolves. Try an Fmaj6/9 for a strong example of how this progression can maintain smooth flow from one chord to the next (1-x-2-2-3-3)

Jim, I understand it, I just neglected the fact that they actually meant that original chord to be a substitution for the C dominant they put there. I think it looks cleaner and more logical to write the name of the tritone chord there if it's as obvious as the one in the example, instead of forcing us to read it as a rootless V7 with lots of altered extensions. But you're right, in relation to the implied C dominant, it's a Gb7 and not a F#7.

[Jim Soloway]

Jim, I understand it, I just neglected the fact that they actually meant that original chord to be a substitution for the C dominant they put there. I think it looks cleaner and more logical to write the name of the tritone chord there if it's as obvious as the one in the example, instead of forcing us to read it as a rootless V7 with lots of altered extensions. But you're right, in relation to the implied C dominant, it's a Gb7 and not a F#7.

Given how explicit they're being about the voicing, I agree with you. I'd have only called it a C7 if the player had the option of choosing the voicing or substitution.

[Reg]

This is a test...
-what are the rest of the notes implied, the complete pitch collection. -Where do they come from...
-Does anyone actually hear that voicing as a Cdom chord going to F.
Just for info... Tri-tone sub means just that... the tri-tone is inverted. Tri-tone root motion is a different substitution process. We get pretty casual about terminology because the first level of developments are generally similar... But they're two different methods of chord substitution... can be very different pitch collections.
-Is there a chance that the A on top is simply a blue note of bII7, which is still one more choice of analysis, with different implications.
I'm not trying to be an ass... but there are big differences as to how one would play/hear the changes depending on choice of analysis... and yes that's what we do every time we play through tunes or even some changes.
Could be G-9(dorian), G-6(MM, somewhat like C9#11, or implied), G-7(Dorian),Gb7#9(blue note), going to Cbmaj9, Bb13, A-9, D7#9... and back to G-7... pretty standard movement, put in form and could have...
G-9.../ C9#11.../ G-9.../ Gb7#9.../
B-9.../ E9#11..../ B-9. Bb13./ A-9. D7#9/ and repeat, call A of AABA tune, have 1st and 2nd ending to get to B section... hey this could be cool bop tune... anyway where did calling C7 a type of V chord go...

[brwnhornet59]

This is a test...
-what are the rest of the notes implied, the complete pitch collection. -Where do they come from...
-Does anyone actually hear that voicing as a Cdom chord going to F.
Just for info... Tri-tone sub means just that... the tri-tone is inverted. Tri-tone root motion is a different substitution process. We get pretty casual about terminology because the first level of developments are generally similar... But they're two different methods of chord substitution... can be very different pitch collections.
-Is there a chance that the A on top is simply a blue note of bII7, which is still one more choice of analysis, with different implications.
I'm not trying to be an ass... but there are big differences as to how one would play/hear the changes depending on choice of analysis... and yes that's what we do every time we play through tunes or even some changes.
Could be G-9(dorian), G-6(MM, somewhat like C9#11, or implied), G-7(Dorian),Gb7#9(blue note), going to Cbmaj9, Bb13, A-9, D7#9... and back to G-7... pretty standard movement, put in form and could have...
G-9.../ C9#11.../ G-9.../ Gb7#9.../
B-9.../ E9#11..../ B-9. Bb13./ A-9. D7#9/ and repeat, call A of AABA tune, have 1st and 2nd ending to get to B section... hey this could be cool bop tune... anyway where did calling C7 a type of V chord go...

Good point Reg. When I saw that I just see an alt V. Now what scale would I have chosen to play over it? Prob either C# Dim b4 from D HM or C Dorian b2 from BbMM. C Myxo b2 would work nicely to, from F Harmonic Major.

[tonyknight]

Thanks to all of you more experienced musicians :-) This is a learning experience 'par excellence'!

tony