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I've been perusing through this forum for a couple of weeks now, I can't believe I haven't come across more Rhythm threads. I didn't know where to place this thread, since is it is the backbone of all music. Honestly, I think there should be a section of this forum completely dedicated to Rhythm. Over the years I've noticed in my soloing, if I get lost in the harmony, but play chromatic rhythmic lines, the solo impresses people more often than nought, than if I play less rhythmic but harmonically sound lines.
So I guess what I'm getting at is this question: What gives you a better sense of Rhythm?
For me the meteronome with measure divisions have been clutch, drum machines, playing to records, playing with other people (the most important), learning bebop heads, latin music, using triplet lines in solos instead of dotted notes, and practicing trading fours with myself, soloing and comping.
P.S. If anyone has some great Rhythmic etudes for guitar, let me know!
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08-20-2011 04:50 PM
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Good question. I've been trying to follow the McLauglin DVD:
but like like all of his stuff it demands a level of commitment that I find difficult to match.
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can't believe I haven't come across more Rhythm threads
I feel the same way, wish I could contribute something useful, maybe will try later.
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I was actually taught a similiar method in college, Rhythmic solfege. For a a group of 32th notes in 4/4 it would be: 1-ka-ta-ka-te-ka-ta-ka, for 32nds in 3/4- 1-ka-ta-ka-la-ka-ta-ka-li-ka-ta-ka.
Originally Posted by RAQ
in 3/4 8ths- 1-la-li
16ths- 1-ta-la-ta-li-ta
Boy, I hope I wrote all that correctly. I did use the system to minimal success, as we were forced to learn it for Aural Training. However, I quickly reverted back to the 1-e-and-uh system that I've been using since Elementary School.Last edited by mikeph; 08-20-2011 at 09:26 PM.
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What little training I've had uses the '1-e-and-uh system' too (good name for it). What I found difficult about Konokol, and still don't really understand, is being able to distinguis it from timing - they do that with their hands. I would start off using it to develop a rhythm only to find, later on, I'd slipped back into using it to keep time. I suppose that means I need more practice - just like everything else. Without some way of developing rhythm though everything gradually turns to 'scales'. There are posts on here from time to time asking how to avoid playing just scales, but very little (as you say) about developing rhythms. Some sort of rhythmic system ought to break the constant stream of notes up and (this seems to be McLaughlin's point) develop a melodic sense too. Melodies need changes in pitch, but they need rhythm too.
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Here's a great 10 part John Abercrombie Lesson, I can't believe it's on the 'tube:
During one segment, I can't remember which one, he discusses using chord tones to solo. He actually stays away from discussing scales all together until the very end of the video when he plays some modal stuff. There's one excercise I'm about to practice right now, which is playing 2 notes per measure. He says this makes you choose your notes/tensions wisely, and also having solid Rhythm. He says alot of players kinda woosh through lines so it covers up bad timing. When you have to play only half notes, your rhythm becomes very apparent. Then after you get a handle on 2 notes per measure, move on to 4. He said once you master this you'll get bored, and start creating your own lines that are harmonically sound and rhythmically tight.
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Rhythm playing gets a bad rap. Mostly because I think guitarists think that rhythm playing is defined as "the player who sucks too much to play lead". A lot of us know better, but not enough.
I'm totally with out on wanting more rhythm playing technique and discussions. I enjoy that part of playing so much more than solo training. Specifically, I'd like to get to that in-between time. The point where you are coming in with some good chords under your belt but aren't proficient enough to be doing 8 chords to a bar.
DB
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For me, when it comes to playing with good rhythm, it's really a matter of learning from bassists. Rhythm is where they shine.
This vid is Victor Wooten explaining how he uses a metronome to build up timing.
You could probably mix Victor's metronome exercises with the konnakol mentioned above.
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The best rhythm players are those who play with singers. Check out Oscar Moore's work with Nat King Cole, Russell Malone's with Diana Krall, Barney Kessel's with Julie London, Joe Pass' with Ella, etc.
For really propulsive swinging rhythms, listen to Western Swing and Gyspy Jazz. There are so many strong rhythm machines in those groups.
To get bossa rhythms down, João Gilberto is essential.
And dig deep into Freddie Green.
IMO one of the reasons rhythm is so often overlooked on this board (and others) is that rhythm is an ensemble experience; it embraces the entire song, not just a chorus or spotlight. For whatever reasons, there seems to have been an emphasis on modes and speed and subs and the individual's solo in current jazz approaches. YMMV.
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Best book ever written on the subject, IMHO. Use it with metronome and see the difference. Originally Posted by mikeph
Amazon.com: Melodic Rhythms for Guitar (0073999494501): William Leavitt: Books
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anyone familiar with jerry bergonzi book on rhythm?
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Totally Agree, I was once told by my teacher that the best Rhythm players are the best lead players. What bores me so much with lead players are those whose lines "float" above the rhythm section. I've always loved the soloists who are "IN" the rhythm section, 'Trane, Rollins, and Parker were amazing at this. Originally Posted by lindydanny
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I've found a great way to develop solid rhythm (aside from the usual metronome practice) is to try to play some duo gigs where you are the only rhythm player (i.e. guitar/horn, guitar/vocals etc). That really forces you to solidify your rhythm, no place to hide, nobody to lean on, and unlike a solo gig, you need to provide a consistent rhythmic base for your partner.
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I think the reason "rhythm" is neglected here is that most threads on it have "comping" in the title.
I don't think anybody here discounts the importance of good accompanyment...it's just a jazz language thing...
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I think that's one of the problems, is that people think "rhythm" and think chords/comping, when it's also the foundation for single line improvising and improvising in general. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Absolutely...but in lead playing we call it "phrasing."
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Maybe I'm just new to the forum, I've been checkin it out without registering all summer, but in the last two days with this thread topic, I have seen more conversation about rhythm than I have seen all summer.
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Yeah, it's funny how a great guitar player can play a lead for an entire song and get a modest response from the audience. Then, for eight measures, the bassist gets to slap you silly and the crowd goes wild! Originally Posted by mikeph
DB
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It's interesting. Rhythm guitar is a definite jazz guitar tradition.
But "lead" playing? That's not a term that I feel is really used much in jazz--that's a rock and roll term. I guess "lead" playing means running choruses, i.e., soloing. In jazz, there is no distinction between a good player who comps when needed and runs choruses when given space.
I have to think for a few seconds when presented with therms such as "lead pickup" and "rhythm pickup" or the same settings on my Semour Duncan preamp. From my point of view, from my experience, the "lead" pickup can pretty much fuck off
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word up... Originally Posted by mikeph
I think a great cause of this musical malodiousness is the misuse of the modern backing track>>often treated merely as an armature, to be covered with indulgence.
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check out "creative reading studies for saxophone". much more than a reading book. you can spend a month on one page of that book. highly recommended...
yes...RHYTHM. if you play with rhythm, you can play just about anything. just ask Miles.
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Man... I've been on the soap box for ever about rhythmic concepts... what do you want to know... there's a ton of concepts, give me a direction... and I'll open your eyes to playing in the pocket, on the beat, behind or ahead. How to rhythmically articulate and support your harmonic or melodic playing or composing... All BS aside... really at least half of my gigs, I gig non-stop, are because of my rhythmic concepts of playing, not just jazz... The subject has been discussed... but not enough. Most players have problems with rhythm due to technique... the guitar plays them.
A rhythmic concept only goes so far, you really need a harmonic scheme to make the rhythmic concept come to life. ( you can think of harmonic concept as melodic concept, but I tend to hear complete vertical structures for every note. I hear vertical and horizontal as one)... anyway give me a topic or example and I'll go off... Reg
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I don't think he meant accompaniment; Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
I thought he meant making the rhythm patterns of a solo, chords, more interesting.
how to change it up, use different note lengths, phrase lengths, rhythm patterns, etc.
many solos, at all levels, tend to be long strings of notes of the same length, or, for instance, the woody woodpecker pattern, which I have heard used so many times.
you know the one I mean. it's used constantly.it's boring.
that subject is almost never discussed here.
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already answered thanks
Last edited by markf; 08-23-2011 at 08:40 PM. Reason: edit
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Woody Woodpecker pattern! Too funny. Originally Posted by markf
I think it's a product not just of machine gunning endless streams of 8th notes, but lack of ACCENTS--time becomes amorphous without accents.
If jazz is a lqnguage, then Accents and slurs are like the vowels
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