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Hi - Is a G7#5b9 just an Fm7b5??
Sailor
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08-02-2008 09:14 PM
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That's a great trick to have under your fingers!
If you see any altered chord you can play a m7b5 chord a whole step down.
By doing so you can play the following progression.
for a minor 2-5-1, say Dm7b5-G7alt-Cm6 you can play:
Dm7b5 - Fm7b5 (sub for G7alt) - Am7b5 (Cm6/A)
That way you can use the same shape for comping, and if you are blowing you can easily move a motive/melody around each chord because they can all come from the same arp/scale shape just moved up the neck.
MW
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Wow! this works for ANY altered chord? I'm going to have to think and apply this for a while until I really get it.
Matt would it be possible to see some "easier" comping etudes for These Foolish Things, Stormy Weather.... I'm having a hard time making the leap to some of your etudes and chord melodies. I'd like to get a handle on some easier ones first. Lower positions, more triads,diads, melody lines, etc...
I'm doing some of my own now and I'd like to compare mine to some professional ones.
Sailor
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Let me know what you think of this one, it might be a bit more playable.
MW
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Yeah, I mean I can sight read this one right away, but it's this level that allows me to see the genesis of the kind of voice leading and chord usage I need. (Edim is enharmonic to C7b9, right)?
I usually play all these standards with full chords and I love the reduced voicing and simple fingerings; for me, and I'm sure a lot of others, these kind of etudes are easily playable but also very instructional.
Thanks so much
Sailor
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Glad you dig the new chart!
Yep, Edim7 = C7b9/E, you're on the right track there as well.
MW
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Do you have jazz knowledge of parallelism? i.e, in classical voice leading/counterpoint we were taught composers avoided parallel 4ths and 5ths, (up until Debussy,etc...) I was wondering if jazz players intentionally avoid parallel voice leading; does this sound bad or good,modern.
Sailor
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In jazz we actually love paralellism. Everyone from Django to Ben Moner has used it on guitar, and Mcoy Tyner made a living playing parallel fourth voicings behind Coltrane's solos.
One thing you can do that is quite common to get you started with parallelism is to move between the ii and the iii of a key.
So if you have a Dm7 chord for a bar or two, try playing DGCFA on the top five strings, then just move it up by two frets to EADGB and back to the first chord. you can play them seperately or you can slide up and back between the two.
MW
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Cool - what was thought of as dull in baroque and classical is kind of definitive in modern jazz!
Why don't you move to Rhode Island and teach at Brown University (Haha)
I can't find a good teacher yet that see's the whole picture. I don't want to waste my time, I'm getting old!
Thanks for the great input as always
Sailor
Prov RI
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If Brown would give me a job I'd be there tomorrow!
Just keep practicing and listening, you'll be suprised how fast you'll learn this stuff!
MW
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Sailor, matt,
Parallism can work beautifully in many areas. For a simple thing, try playing some blues lines then use 4ths beneath them.
So in F if you play the blues scale your first chord would be from top to bottom on the top 4 strings f c g d then up a minor 3rd Ab Eb Bb F then a tone Bb F C G then a semitone B FSharp Csharp Gsharp then back down again. Do this on all the strings in all the different places and experiment by putting different notes on top i.e. Start same f blues but with C on second string C G D A then minor 3rd up then tone up then another minor 3rd up etc. It's fun. Enjoy!
Mike
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Would not the answer to the original question be "no" because even though they are fingered the same and have the same notes, they would be used in different contexts, the G7 alt. leading to some resolution chord, and the Fmi having some function other than as a dominant? The subsequent tips are tremendous, but I'm not sure if they answered the question. I don't know; I'm rambling again.
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They can both be viewed as alternates for each other. They give different bass notes so that you can voice lead in another direction. Try it. Instead of Fm7 b5 to Bb7 alt try G7b9Sharp5 to Bb7 alt as an alternative route to Ebma or min. It works the other way around too. Fm7b5 to Csus2/E for a v i in C.
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Correct as usual, King Friday. With the understanding that you can sub dominant chords for each other in minor thirds G7 = Bb7 = Db7 = E7) that gives you a whole lot to work with. By the way, have you seen this transcription of your outstanding work??
www.petrikrzywacki.com - The Petri Krzywacki Homepage
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Just wondering... in this context parallelism means a chord where all the intervals are the same...
like the DGCF chord you were talking about... all P4 intervals?
Just trying to keep up.
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Parallelism means that you take any chord and just move it parallel up the neck.
A triad can be parallel if you move it symetrically, like a C triad(CEG) to a D triad(DF#A). Each voice moves in paralles up a major second to the next note which makes these chords parallel to each other.
MW
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This comes from the classical theory term parallel motion. In classical theory if two voices move and keep the same relation to each other then they are said to be in parallel motion:
Originally Posted by DMatthewsBand07
A - C#, to B-D as below is parallel motion as the voices go from a 3rd to a 3rd, in this case it is a major third to a minor 3rd but it is still considered parallel motion. Then we go from B-D to C#-E, this is parallell motion but in this case from a major third to a major third, this is more parallel than the minor third to major third and sometimes refered to as absolute parallel motion.
---------------------------------------------
-2-----3-----5------------------------------
-2-----4-----6------------------------------
--------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
Another term is similar motion, this is where voices move in the same direction but to different intervals. Like here where the voices go from a major third to a pefect fourth:
---------------------------------------------
----2---5------------------------------------
----2---4------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
Here's oblique motion:
---------------------------------------------
--3-----3------------------------------------
--2-----1------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
And here's the last term, contrary motion:
---------------------------------------------
---2----3------------------------------------
---2----1------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
So in the example sited we have this parallel motion, all the voices from chord to chord are moving in parallel. And you may have run across this, but if you move up in minor thirds like this you end up back where you started just an octave higher. Try the same with short melodic phrases, a great way to go from in to out to back in again.
--------------------------------------------
--2----4----7----10----13------------------
--0----3----6----9-----12-------------------
--0----3----6----9-----12-------------------
--0----3----6----9-----12-------------------
---------------------------------------------
Last edited by fep; 08-03-2008 at 07:06 PM.
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The original question (answer) about the chord was correct because I just stumbled upon the "fingering" and was asking about that;not the harmonic function.
Fep answered the parallel question well because I was wondering aloud why they sought parallel 3rds and 6ths, but avoided 4ths and 5ths. Parallel 4ths, 5ths, and octaves were "incorrect" voice leading because of lack of individual sounds within voices. (Not unlike jazzers not doubling roots in chords, redundant.
I don't really know if sliding chords up and down is really parallelism, my understanding is that it applies more to counterpoint, individual voices.
Thanks for all the great input in the thread!
Sailor
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M78W, Do you ever use this concept in your chord melodies? "Here's That Rainy Day" comes to mind as a probable good candidate for the parallelism technique. When I was at G.I.T., one of our homework assignments (from Ron Eschete's chord melody class) was to use this concept for a chord melody arrangement.
wiz
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Hey Wiz,
I use this stuff CONSTANTLY in my chord melodies, comping and chord soloing.
Lenny Breau and Ed Bickert were masters of this stuff so I've done my best to steal their ideas for my own tunes.
The intro on Just Squeeze me from Pure Desmond is a great example of Ed using parallel 13th voicings to make a great modern sounding idea that is traditional at the same time.
MW
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Hiya Matt! My bad, I meant to say "contrary motion" not parallelism with Rainy day as a candidate. BTW, I am really enjoying every minute I spend studying and listening to Ed Bickert and your example (Squeeze Me) from Pure Desmond is a good showpiece for Ed's very natural sound. He is so easygoing!
wiz
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Hey Wiz,
I also use contrary motion in my chord melodies. More in a solo context so I can use the lower range of the guitar without getting in the bass players way.
A great example that I use is Polka Dots and Moonbeams, where the first line goes up, I like to harmonize it with a descending line that starts with one notes and moves out to 5.
MW
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Good point, that style might be a problem for a bass player and maybe some keyboard players. I believe George Van Eps used contrary motion in some of his older recordings. Thanks again for the helpful info on Ed Bickert.
wiz
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Cool, here's the example I was talking about, I wrote it a bit exagerated to give you a better idea of what I like to do.
MW
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wow! very nice example, thanks.
wiz
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